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Remembered Today:

Mystery of soldier killed with 9th London Regiment


abbrover

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According to CWGC and effects register, 394018 Pte Harry Hinkins was killed in action on 6 November 1918, serving with 1/9 London Regiment. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Loos Memorial. The problem I have is that, according to the war diary, 9th London Regiment were out of the line, and had been since the end of October, in Rumegies, a long way from the area covered by Loos Memorial. On the day in question, they were practising crossing a moat using rafts. I appreciate he may have had an accident, but there is nothing in the diary about accidents or casualties. Any body got any ideas what might have happened to him? I wondered if he had been attached to another unit, but can't find anything to suggest this

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Thanks Mike, I've just taken a look at him, but he's buried in the UK, so I don't think they are connected, but I will take a closer look at him

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Have you got any personal/family detail?

Acknown

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He was the son of George and Mary Hinkins (although his father had died before the war). He came from Bermondsey, born 1898

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3 minutes ago, johnboy said:

Does SDGW not give a location?

Just F&F for Hinkins.

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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I suspect Mike could have hit the nail on the head with the Labour Corps transfer for Crawford, it may just be that Hinkins Labour Corps transfer was not noted on the medal rolls.

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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Another possibility is that the date itself is, in one sense, incorrect.  I have seen a file where a man was (twice) noted as "wounded and missing" in a night action, but SDGW and CWGC go with a date several weeks later when his unit was in Rest well behind the line.    

 

This came about because a body was located a couple of weeks after the action, and was initially believed to be his by the chaplain dealing with it; but the fact could not be proved conclusively.  The authorities eventually went with a killed in action date seemingly based on the date of the chaplain's full report, and the casualty is commemorated on a memorial to the missing.  What may well be his body was seemingly buried as an unknown soldier of the X Regiment.   

 

Clive

Edited by clive_hughes
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   To add to the mystery:

 

1) He is the only casualty of 6th November 1918  recorded on the Loos Memorial

2)   There are other casualties to the London Regiment that day- a clutch for the  Kensingtons (13th Londons). It is possible that he was actally with another London battalion when killed. The London regiments tended to trade drafts with each other- the Royal Fusilers battalions did so within their orbiit but also the other City and County of London battalions.  I have local casualties for my part of London where the same problem arises- a casualty is listed but the battalion was nowhere near where the casualty is buried/remembered and out of the line as well. The plus side is that the date is probably correct (though not always) but he may have been transferred  to another London battalion-and the Kensingtons are the most likely, in terms of casualties that day. 

     The case against Labour Corps is his age- if born 1898, then he was almost certainly a recent conscript - and too young either to have been wounded and incapaciated, nor knocked out by being older and worn down.

    SDGW and Soldiers Effects  were the best chance of tripping over an irregularity in the records- it might be worth running his name against the Daily Casualty Lists to see if the date is correct-they usually ran about 2 weeks in arrears, so if correct his death would be reported in late November 1918. It might also give a cause of death-KIA, DOW. It is possible that he was DOW rather than KIA - usually correct but just possible he was wounded with 9th Londons earlier on-in which case a perusal of war diary should show this up.

   9th Londons also have a war history by Cuthbert Keeson, which has been reprinted and which an obliging GWF member may do a "look up" to see if there is anything which would explain this.   Other than that, local Press is the best hope-  or Local Studies where he lived (Bermondsey??)  

 

       PS His service number is correct for Queen Victoria's Rifles-394018.  The service numbers either side of him were both killed in 1917 and with Queen Victoria's Rifles.

 

Edited by Guest
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   To add to the mystery:

 

1) He is the only casualty of 6th November 1918  recorded on the Loos Memorial

2)   There are other casualties to the London Regiment that day- a clutch for the  Kensingtons (13th Londons). It is possible that he was actally with another London battalion when killed. The London regiments tended to trade drafts with each other- the Royal Fusilers battalions did so within their orbiit but also the other City and County of London battalions.  I have local casualties for my part of London where the same problem arises- a casualty is listed but the battalion was nowhere near where the casualty is buried/remembered and out of the line as well. The plus side is that the date is probably correct (though not always) but he may have been transferred  to another London battalion-and the Kensingtons are the most likely, in terms of casualties that day. 

     The case against Labour Corps is his age- if born 1898, then he was almost certainly a recent conscript - and too young either to have been wounded and incapaciated, nor knocked out by being older and worn down.

    SDGW and Soldiers Effects  were the best chance of tripping over an irregularity in the records- it might be worth running his name against the Daily Casualty Lists to see if the date is correct-they usually ran about 2 weeks in arrears, so if correct his death would be reported in late November 1918. It might also give a cause of death-KIA, DOW. It is possible that he was DOW rather than KIA - usually correct but just possible he was wounded with 9th Londons earlier on-in which case a perusal of war diary should show this up.

   9th Londons also have a war history by Cuthbert Keeson, which has been reprinted and which an obliging GWF member may do a "look up" to see if there is anything which would explain this.   Other than that, local Press is the best hope-  or Local Studies where he lived (Bermondsey??)  

 

He doesn't appear in the WO casualty list (killed) until 19 Dec 1918,  as London Regiment.

Craig

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5 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

He doesn't appear in the WO casualty list (killed) until 19 Dec 1918,  as London Regiment.

Craig

 

      Craig- a little bit of pedantry may assist-  Does DCL say "Killed" or "Killed in Action" ?.  The former would fit with an accident.

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      Craig- a little bit of pedantry may assist-  Does DCL say "Killed" or "Killed in Action" ?.  The former would fit with an accident.


Just shows as Killed,  Mike - the list is of several hundred men overall so unlikely for it not to be read as KiA.

Craig

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9 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:


Just shows as Killed,  Mike - the list is of several hundred men overall so unlikely for it not to be read as KiA.

Craig

 

    But a little piece of good news-   Harry Hinkins comes up frequently  on Mr. Google's Apparatus-  with 2 main lines of information

 

1) He was a pupil at St. Josephs Primary School, London SE16-  details on Google. They would be delighted to know anything about him from Abbrover and may hold a small amount of information.

2)  There are frequent references to a Harry Hinkins House in Walworth- same chunk of South London.  I cannot see another Harry Hinkins that might account for the name of the building- Thus, a call to the nearest local studies library should yield some results- it should hold some info. on why the building is "Harry Hinkins House" and likewise may have the local newspapers for look -up.

(The downside is that, living in North London, that South London is alien to me- Walworth is on the border of 2 London boroughs- LB Lambeth and LB Southwark. Worth trying both.)

 

 

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The building may have been named after councillor Harry Hinkins who seems to have been around South London from the early 1900's. Looks like he was in and around St John's Ward of Camberwell as a councillor (and may have been the same man who was a councillor and Mayor in Southwark in the 1930's)

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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6 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The building may have been named after councillor Harry Hinkins who seems to have been around South London from the early 1900's. Looks like he was in and around St John's Ward of Camberwell as a councillor (and may have been the same man who was a councillor and Mayor in Southwark in the 1930's)

Craig

 

     Exactly so Craig-    Pound to a penny that the building is named after him  - BUT also pound to a penny that the Harry Hinkins we want is his son or nephew.   Southwark/Lambeth Local Studies pronto- they should have obits. for the Mayor Hinkins which may cast light on the one we want.

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Thank you everybody, plenty of ideas here for me to explore.

Clive - 9 London's were in the Lens area a few weeks before he died, so your suggestion is a possibility.

GUEST - His father was George, but I will do more family history research and see if I can tie him in to Councillor Harry 

I will have a look for local history archive groups too.

Thanks again everyone for all your input, it is much appreciated

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  • 2 years later...

Hello All,

 

Harry Hinkins is commemorated at the back of the QVR history book:

 

“Hinkins, Harry, e. Bermondsey, 394018, Rfn., k. in a., F. & F., 6/11/18”

 

This might suggest he was indeed with them, though I do not think it absolutely precludes him being attached or posted elsewhere.

 

I note that although the QVR were indeed practicing crossing a moat on rafts on the 6th November, the C.O. and Coy. Commanders were reconnoitering the 'forward area' on 5th. I would suggest that such action might have taken place later on in the day, or even at night, and that there would also be a few OR with the officers. If he was killed at night, or in the early hours, it could easily have been recorded as 6th November.

 

In addition, although the Loos Memorial is about 50 km away, I believe it could cover men killed in the Rumegies area. The CWGC is a bit vague in that it says the Loos Memorial commemorates men killed in the area from the River Lys down to the east and west of Grenay. Rumegies is perhaps a bit far away, but I would have thought it was still in the general area.  The battalion was moving very fast at this point and although it had gone off quite a bit to the east, what other memorials are there in France for the area they were in? Any further east and you would be in Belgium. There is Arras, but that is further south beyond the Grenay line. I don’t think it quite covers the period up to November 1918 either.

 

He could have been attached to another London Battalion. That happens a lot, as others have mentioned. With regard to the Kensingtons, they attacked Angre on the 6th November. This is a further 40 km east on from Rumegies, and is in Belgium. I presume that in this case he would have been recorded on a Belgium Memorial, for example, Tyne Cot.  

Just a few thoughts. Apologies if I have missed the point anywhere, especially about memorials.

Regards,

 

Chris

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