Walter Tull (Middlesex) War Diary - Italy

[nthornton1979]

Hi all,

 

Can anyone post, or point me in the right direction to the 23rd Middlesex Battalion War Diary for the 1-2 Janaury 1918. This is the night that Tull took his men across the Piave for which it is said he was recommended for the MC.

 

I have searched on Ancestry but cannot find this particular date. I don't know it that's simply because I am a fool, or because it is not there.

 

Cheers

Neil

[jonbem]

HERE on National Archives

or search keyword 1713/1 on Ancestry

Reference:	WO 95/1713/1
Description:	2 Battalion Middlesex Regiment
Date:	1914 Nov. - 1919 Mar.

[nthornton1979]

Thanks Jon,

 

I think that's the 2nd Battalion as opposed to the 23rd which is the one I'm looking for.

 

I have found the diaries for the battalion up until October 1917 and then again from March 1918. The 'gap' is when they went to Italy so I'm thinking that Ancestry perhaps don't have the war diaries for Italy. 

 

Cheers

Neil

[jonbem]

oops!

eyes getting worse! mis-read it on page as it followed 3 entries for the 23rd

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=23+battalion+middlesex

 

 

[kenf48]

The War Diary for the 23rd Middlesex Regiment in Italy is not on Ancestry and has not been digitised.

 

It is available at TNA under 41Division, 123 Infantry Brigade 

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557396

 

Ken

[nthornton1979]

Thank you both.

 

Looks like I'll have to pull it from the NA.

 

Thanks again

Neil

[JulianB]

I have been through 41 Div WDs to contextualise the day my gfather was wounded / captured and somewhere I have a photocopy of 23Mddx WD which - yes - does mention Tull - and Haig-Brown.

Give me a day or two and I'll find it !

It's somwhere in here War Diary, 23^rd Bn Middlesex Regt., (WO 95/2639), March 1918.

Edited 3 June , 2018 by JulianB

[jimbothematlow]

Hello Julian B, Hope you may find my  Great Grandfather of interest in your 123rd MGC research - 104992 Pte/Acting Cpl. Robert Galloway. MM & Croix de Guerre (Belgium).

Sadly I have only sketchy details, but do have a nice photgraph of him in MGC uniform. 

[Chris_Baker]

Pals may be interested to know the facts: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/walter-daniel-tull-and-recommendation-for-the-military-cross/

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Chris_Baker said:

Pals may be interested to know the facts: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/walter-daniel-tull-and-recommendation-for-the-military-cross/

 

     Thanks Chris- a most useful run-through of the information. The key to this seems to be  the reluctance of Mr. Phil Vasili to publish a picture of the  reference to Tull's gallantry- which he maintains  was a recommendation for the MC.  A closer read- and the comments by some others who have looked into it, is that this was a "divisional officers commendation"- which  is a "proxime accessit" to an MC-close but you don't get the formal award.  I have looked through as many of Mr. Vasili's writings as I can get hold of- books, newspaper articles, etc. but not once does he give a picture of this document.  Further coherent detail  of the raid on the Austrian lines is welcome  and LLT has again come up trumps on lucid and careful exposition ,which is helpful to all.

    However, unless Mr. Vasili- or the descendants of Walter Tull, who hold the document- make it available  by image, then the  debate must continue. That Tull received a recommendation for the MC is entirely consistent with what may be a commendation  rather than the medal-and squares with consistency and truth with what Pickard wrote.  

Mr. Vasili's continuing reticence on this matter does not help his cause.

    In addition, it would be useful-if at all possible- to work out whether any/all of the officers who took part in the raid  were accorded a commendation. I venture to suggest that if Tull did indeed receive one for,effectively, commanding a party of support troops, then it is highly likely that the other officers involved also got recognized by commendation.

[Moonraker]

1 hour ago, voltaire60 said:

...   In addition, it would be useful-if at all possible- to work out whether any/all of the officers who took part in the raid  were accorded a commendation. I venture to suggest that if Tull did indeed receive one for,effectively, commanding a party of support troops, then it is highly likely that the other officers involved also got recognized by commendation.

Doesn't the article to which Chris has linked answer these questions?

 

Moonraker

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Moonraker said:

Doesn't the article to which Chris has linked answer these questions?

 

Moonraker

 

   MR- Yes and No. Chris is far too good a researcher  not to mention it:

"Some sources have stated that the divisional commanding officer Major General Sydney Lawford praised Walter for gallantry and coolness, in a letter of condolence to Walter’s family. I have found no trace of this letter and would be interested to know the source of this information. It would be unusual for a man of Lawford’s rank to write to the next of kin of a Second Lieutenant."

 

      My point is that  everything effectively tacks back to this "document" and it's status. Yes, it is unlikely to be a letter of condolence-which,personally, I have not seen reference to it being (though Vasili does say there were 2 letters,of which Pickard is one-leaving us hanging in mid-air).  But we need to see an image of the document to decide for ourselves. Unusual for a general to write to the family of a deceased Second Lieutenant but not impossible.   The image of the document is the key to unwrapping this. Mr. Vasili's interpretation of what it is is the crucial element.

   Vasili  has run through 2 editions of his book  and  there is even a website with pictures about Walter Tull. But this evidence is missing. It is the crux of the story and it makes what Mr. Vasili says unreliable until the image is generally available.  And to hang  larger  issues of public debate and attitude-essentially-on this withheld document (if,indeed, it does exist with the family) -- all of the shouty,shouty, finger-pointing stuff by Mr. Lammy et al- as well as the possibility of uniquely overturning the rules for the award of a Military Cross  retrospectively a century on-Well, a question easily solved,if only Mr. Vasili  would come clean.  19,996 Second Lieutenants of the British Army died up to the Armistice. Where is the fairness for them in all of this?   In addition, Walter Tull was a fallen officer with a good and honourable service record. To do proper justice to his memory, Mr. Vasili MUST be pressed to to produce it- as he has already been caught out gerrymandering what the MML actually said about the eligibility for commission, then a selective quote from a document not subsequently produced just will not do.

[ss002d6252]

I have no real involvement in the discussions regarding Tull (although I'm certainly not a revisionist) but I must agree with Mike - It's all too easy to state a claim on the back of documents but equally those documents should be able to be produced to support that claim.

Craig

[Chris_Baker]

I now have a copy of Lawford's communication to Walter Tull, kindly supplied to me by Walter's family. I have agreed not to share or display it. I have updated the last parts of my article at http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/walter-daniel-tull-and-recommendation-for-the-military-cross/ and once I have followed up with a bit more research on the communication I will add more. Back soon.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Chris_Baker said:

I now have a copy of Lawford's communication to Walter Tull, kindly supplied to me by Walter's family. I have agreed not to share or display it. I have updated the last parts of my article at http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/walter-daniel-tull-and-recommendation-for-the-military-cross/ and once I have followed up with a bit more research on the communication I will add more. Back soon.

 

     I applaud your efforts.

 

      BUT second-hand  statements against  knowingly withheld  primary  materials  is an exercise in futility.  

 

2)   And the other  19,995  British Army Second Lieutenants  died  up to the Armistice.?   And the Lieutenants, Captains, Majors and any others entitled to consideration for the award of the MC?. Or the ORs for the MM?    

 

      The  "official" end of the Great War in 1921 ,which put a stop to new awards, has held for nigh on a century. And for good reason. We cannot revisit EVERY case.  

 

 

[Chris_Baker]

It's not with-held. I have a copy. It's just that I do not yet have agreement in how to use it publicly, and I do not intend to break an agreement. Once my work with it has reached another stage, I am sure that it will be made available. All in good time.

[Guest]

   Thank you CB. If you have given your word, then that is good enough for me anytime.

   

     There is a residual query that comes  with this, which relates to another item  that, according to Paul Vasili, is also held by the family.  Vasili says there were 2 letters (?) to Tull's brother after his death. One was from Pickard-and seems fairly widely  pictured hither and thither- but there is also a reference to one from  a Major Poole.  Vasili refers to it thus in his biography of Tull (First edition), at page 180, para 3:

 

    "It is probable that it was to the 1st January mission that Major Poole and 2nd Lieutenant Pickard were referring when they informed  Edward that his brother had been recommended for the Military Cross"

 

       Now, I have probably missed it along the line-but I cannot see either the text of this other communication (Presumed to be a letter) from Poole, let alone a picture of it.

 

(Vasili has published a second edition of his book but if the Lawford has not been made public, then it rather answers the question about whether it is available in advance)

 

   Could you  flag up what this Poole item is, whether I have missed it somewhere along the line or whether it is still held by the family, ( to  your knowledge) ????

 

    

[Chris_Baker]

The letter from Poole is also in the family's possession. I have not seen it or even asked to see it, as yet. I understand that it is dated 12 April 1918.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Chris_Baker said:

The letter from Poole is also in the family's possession. I have not seen it or even asked to see it, as yet. I understand that it is dated 12 April 1918.

 

       CB- Thank You.  Your work should make for very interesting reading for all. 

 

( I wonder-out loud- if MOD has kept an office file-post-Arnside- for retrospective awards outside the  end dates for both wars. I know the question has come up before in respect of a man died in the Second World War, but I suspect there might be a "precedent" file kept as a live file in Whitehall- or perhaps the older materials might be buried at Kew?)

Edited 4 July , 2018 by Guest