George Edward Manning 101019

[nicktamarensis]

Hello,

I wonder if anyone can help in tracking down this relative's war record?

As far as we know, George was born either in Islington (location given in his application to join the Royal Horse Guards in 1915) or Reading (as stated on 1901 and 1911 Census records) on 4 September 1891 but even this is unconfirmed as we cannot trace a birth certificate.

George apparently always had a love of horses which may have prompted his attempt to join the Royal Horse Guards at the 2nd RDR (?) Area Guildford in November 1915.

His application was turned down by the OC Reserve Regt. Royal Horse Guards at Regents Park for an unknown reason.  

After this the trail goes cold but he did marry Constance M. Barrell in 1917 somewhere in Suffolk. 

The continuation of the story (as understood by the family) was that he was sent to Egypt at an unknown date and with an unknown unit.

On 10/8/1919 he reappears on the Army Reserve 'Z' list as an A/Sgt GEM (?) with the MGC (Cav) so presumably George fulfilled his wish to become part of a unit which employed horses. 

On 18/5/1920 he reappears as an A/Sgt on the medal record as again being part of the MGC (Cavalry).

That's as much as we know - although a couple of undated photographs exist in a location which could be Egypt - presumably when he could have been with the EEF - unfortunately neither photo offers a clue as to the identification of the unit he was with at the time when they were taken.

If any kind soul out there can fill in at least some the gaps pertaining to his war service we would be most grateful.

Nick.

[aim]

There was a George Edward Manning whose birth was registered in Oct/Nov/Dec 1891 in Hackney (right next to Islington) volume 1b page 533.

 

aim

[kenf48]

I suspect he may have been accepted by the Yeomanry, perhaps Suffolk(? the wedding you mention, many home service Yeomanry were on coastal defence duties and East Anglia was a ‘hotspot’).  Odd though that nearly all those around him on the Medal Rolls were ‘disembodied’ which indicates a TF (Yeomanry) soldier, whereas he was discharged to the Class ‘Z’.  The Rolls indicate he was only on active service overseas with the MGC (Cavalry).

 

Based on surviving service records his  transfer to the MGC (Cavalry) dates from on or around, and no earlier than, 13 November 1917 at Maresfield Park.  Possibly in a draft to Egypt January 1918, difficult to say where he was posted from there.  

 

Ken

 

Edited 24 February , 2018 by kenf48

[PRC]

Hi,

 

If he was serving when he married then his marriage certificate is going to state rank and unit. On that basis it might be good to know that a George E.Manning married a Constance M. Barrell in the Ipswich District of Suffolk in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1917.  (Volume 4a, Page 1742).

FreeBMD link is the only one I can give you that doesn't require an account or subscription, but downside is it gives you both marriages that were recorded on this page.

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1917&end=1917&sq=2&eq=2&type=Marriages&vol=4a&pgno=1742&db=bmd_1518485005&jsexec=1&mono=0&v=MTUxOTQzNTg2ODoxODhhMjEzZTBiYTIxZjQ1NTJjYTUyMzkzZWI1N2FjZjM2MmRkYTU5&searchdef=end%3D1917%26db%3Dbmd_1518485005%26given%3DGeorge%20E%2A%26surname%3DManning%26sq%3D1%26eq%3D4%26start%3D1917%26type%3DMarriages&action=Find

 

I assume this is the same George Edward Manning, born 4th September 1891 who died in the Ipswich District in 1973.

 

Online resources like the British Newspaper archives have some of the local papers for East Suffolk, (public libraries in the UK offer free access on site) and as the website has a (rudimentary) search facility it could be worth a try to see if you can track down your relative that way.

 

BTW – are you sure you have the right man from the Census. The George Manning born Reading on the 1901 Census, (aged 10) and the 1911 Census, (aged 20), can’t have been born in September 1891 unless a miscalculation has occurred both times. He was living with his parents Charles James and Eliza. That couple on the 1891 census have a 5 month old son George, born Reading. There could be a scenario in which the 5 month old George died and that Eliza was already pregnant, giving birth again in September and recycling the name. The flaw is that there is no death for a George Manning of any age in Berkshire during 1891 – which doesn’t rule it out completely, but makes it look unlikely.

 

So once again that points you back to the marriage certificate which would give fathers name, occupation and if still alive. I see that if they had children at all it wasn’t until well after the war was over – its just that fathers details on the birth certificate would again have included rank and unit.

 

I did have a look again at the Census in case anything stood out. On the 1901 census of England and Wales there is a 12 year old George Manning, born Islington, who was recorded living in one of the households at 11 Delhi Street, Islington. This was the household of his parents Elias Manning, aged 71 and a Cab Driver from Devon, and Susan, aged 54 and born Walworth, London. Also in the household is their 14 year old son Charles, born Islington. (Note - sometime between the 1891 census and the 1901 census, Elias' first wife Emma died, and I couldn't find a marriage for him to Susan. That raises the possibility that Emma was the mother of George, or that George was Susan's child that she brought to her new marriage.

 

I know that makes him too old for the date of birth you have, but the son of a cab driver might well have an affinity for horses.

 

Hope that's not too many red herrings - good luck with your search,

Peter

[nicktamarensis]

Many thanks 'aim', Ken and Peter for your diligence in following this up. We shall pursue these leads and see where they take us, but much remains a bit of a mystery to say the least..

The Yeomanry aspect is especially interesting, but it's a bit puzzling there is no attestation papers for George which often is the first thing that turns up when attempting to trace a man's military career.

Also, would there have been a valid reason for his being turned down for the Royal Horse Guards?  Possibly because this unit was very choosy who they took on?

Also, are there any records for the MGC (Cavalry) unit and their activities in the Middle East? 

Many thanks again gentlemen.

Nick.   

[kenf48]

 

3 hours ago, nicktamarensis said:

The Yeomanry aspect is especially interesting, but it's a bit puzzling there is no attestation papers for George which often is the first thing that turns up when attempting to trace a man's military career.

Also, would there have been a valid reason for his being turned down for the Royal Horse Guards?  Possibly because this unit was very choosy who they took on?

Also, are there any records for the MGC (Cavalry) unit and their activities in the Middle East?

 

Your best bet to identify his original unit would be, as suggested above, the marriage certificate.

 

Can’t help you with the RHG question.

 

There has been more interest in the Middle East Campaigns recently but they are still poorly served compared to the Western Front.

A good, readable and recent introduction is ‘The Fall of the Ottomans’ 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fall-Ottomans-Great-Middle-1914-1920/dp/1846144388

 

There are Brigade war diaries at TNA but these have not been digitised, and of course for now we don’t know which Brigade/Squadron he served with.

 There is an online book ‘Through Palestine with the 20th MG Squadron’ https://archive.org/details/throughpalestine17109gut

 

Ken

 

 

 

[PRC]

On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 18:19, nicktamarensis said:

George apparently always had a love of horses which may have prompted his attempt to join the Royal Horse Guards at the 2nd RDR (?) Area Guildford in November 1915.

His application was turned down by the OC Reserve Regt. Royal Horse Guards at Regents Park for an unknown reason.  

 

 

5 hours ago, nicktamarensis said:

Also, would there have been a valid reason for his being turned down for the Royal Horse Guards?  Possibly because this unit was very choosy who they took on?

 

 

I could be adding 2 + 2 and making five here, but that date sets alarm bells ringing. The British Government had already announced that conscription would be introduced early in 1916. Volunteers had trailed away by this stage and were certainly not enough to replace the losses. To soften the blow the War Minister, Lord Derby introduced a scheme in October 1915 whereby for men who "volunteered" before the end of 1915 rather than wait to be conscripted, they could still have some say in the units they would serve with. If not, when conscription came in they would go where they were needed. Once enlisted under the Derby Scheme they were sent home and carried on until called up.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

 

I don't think I've seen many Derby scheme men who opted to join the PBI, (Poor B****y Infantry), but that may just have been the ones I've had cause to investigate. I suspect if the Cavalry had a glut of such unit preferences then most if not all would have been shifted to the infantry automatically with little in the way of a review of each individual for suitability.

 

Could be lots of other reasons and George could well have chosen to volunteer in the autumn of 1915, but does seems a bit of a co-incidence.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[nicktamarensis]

Many thanks Ken and Pete,

The Derby Scheme situation sounds a reasonable one for George and quite likely that (as you surmise) cavalry units had to turn away a glut of 'volunteers'.

The search goes on!

I downloaded the Ebook on the 20th MGC and that was an interesting read.  No mention of George though - I was hoping against hope!

Cheers,

Nick. 

[El Tel]

Hi,

I can help further with George Edward Manning and as I have done a family history it is much easier if you e mail me at (removed by moderator) 

[Michelle Young]

El Tel, please don’t put personal information like email addresses on a public  forum. We get spammers visiting, and they gather information innocently posted . To contact @nicktamarensis please use the personal message system.