German officer 3rd Corps at Beersheba Oct 1917

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

 

I heard mention that the Germans were fooled by the Meinitzhagen letter found by a Turkish patrol (like the movie) and the German officer on the Ottoman 3rd Corps staff pushed this letter as true.

 

I am having trouble finding any confirmation about the Germans/Ottomans being fooled?

 

While the letter may have been believed at 8th Army HQ, not so at 3rd Corps HQ as its commander was reinforced and the late arrival of the 15th Corps was a main reason for the fall of Beersheba?

 

I can find no German officer of staff of the 3rd Corps during Beersheba, and no German officer was lost killed or captured at Beersheba?

 

What truth can we imposs on this event?

 

Any ideas?

 

S.B

[michaeldr]

The reading which I have done on this only mentions Kress by name, but not anyone further down the command chain.

 

Grainger [The Battle for Palestine 1917] quotes Col Hussein Husni, CoS at the 7^th Army saying “it was taken strait to von Kress who closely examined it.”

And he again quotes Husni saying “Till the end everyone but von Kress and Falkenhayn wondered if this pocket book was a trap or not.”

 

Ford [Eden to Armageddon] also only mentions Kress by name,

It should also be noted that he dismisses Meinertzhagen as a liar and says the credit belongs to Col. J. D. Belgrave for the idea, and to Capt. A. C. B. Neate for the execution.

He further states that writing in 1928, Kress himself denied having being taken in

 

Below is the summary in the British OH, which again only mentions the name of Kress in this connection.

 

Edited 21 February , 2018 by michaeldr

[michaeldr]

24 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

Ford [Eden to Armageddon] also only mentions Kress by name,

It should also be noted that he dismisses Meinertzhagen as a liar and says the credit belongs to Col. J. D. Belgrave for the idea, and to Capt. A. C. B. Neate for the execution.

 

A quick check via Google brings up “The Meinertzhagen Mystery: The Life and Legend of a Colossal Fraud” by Brian Garfield who in his 'Acknowledgments' includes the following:

“Katherine Josephine “Karin” Hall with the utmost kindness provided information and allowed us to photocopy vital diary entries by her stepfather, the late Arthur C. B. Neate – entries which, along with Neate's letters that RM incredibly preserved in his diaries, demolish RM's claims about his role in dropping the Beersheba haversack.”

 

A book to be snapped up if spotted

[Stuart24]

Hello,

 

Col Husni writes (pp. 99-100): (I'm transcribing from a poor copy of a typed manuscript, so please excuse the odd [?] where words have blurred)

 

"In the middle of October a pocket book was picked up which had been dropped by an enemy motor car which had hurriedly retired in front of our patrols.  The important document belonged to Major Meinertzhagen, an English liaison officer on the Sinai Front.  It was taken straight to von Kress who closely examined it.  A precis of its contents was as follows:

 

1) The attack on the Sinai Front has been delayed and will commence during the season of heaviest rains (the beginning of the year).

2)Contact with strong cavalry forces against Tel-El-Sharia & Beersheba.  The Turks will send their troops to Beersheba (according to the British the country North East of this line was impassable for cavalry).  The main attack will be made on the western part of the Gaza Front.  Points of debouchment will be prepared close to the right flank of the Gaza position before the attack.  Night attacks and the employment of tanks are being considered.

 

In co-operation with the attack on the Gaza Front eccentric movements were to be made by a brigade each from Wadi Hasi, Mejdel and Beni [?] Yunous.  French troops were to participate in these operations and the pocket book stated other methods connected with the plan to be employed.

 

1) On both sides of the Wadi Main (a wadi joining the Wadi Gaza) from the south trenches exactly resembling the Turkish fortifications were to be constructed for practice.  The British hoped that in two months every officer and man would be put through a course of instruction on this ground.

2)  According to the map which accompanied this manuscript the 20th, 21st and Desert Column faced up.  The 54th Division on the Dir-El-Balah Road was attached to the 20th Corps.

 

Till the end everyone but von Kress and Falkenhayn wondered if this pocket book was a trap or not.  If we could know that it was genuine, then we had the enemy's plans.  But how could we prove its authenticity?  Besides Meinertzhagen is not an English name.  Though Kress thought the papers may have been intentionally dropped he was inclined to believe in their genuineness.  According to Colonel Assin [?] Bey, Chief of Staff, 8th Army, von Kress always believed in an attack on Gaza, and this confirmed his opinion.  In addition he considered it probable that the British would not send us the wrong information in this way.  Falkenhayn did not express an opinion.  The Chief of Staff of Yilderim was suspicious and astonished.  He was most anxious to believe that the papers were genuine, and was continually asking other peoples opinions.  On the other hand information began to accumulate from other sources.  Perhaps the enemy wanted to force us to locate all of our reserves near the sea?  Before the second Battle of Gaza similar information had been collected.  This was only another method employed."  [He then cites a Royal Navy signal that had been intercepted in April 1917, giving away the date of the coming attack on Gaza)

 

Cheers

Stuart

 

[michaeldr]

This is Neate's letter to The Spectator in response to yet another repeat of Meinertzhagen's tale (or lie?)

see http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/23rd-march-1956/13/sntas-strix-says-the-story-of-major-meinertzhagens

In it Neate mentions that the contents of the haversack were passed over to a "German intelligence officer at Beersheba, one Leutnant Schilling"

Perhaps Schilling is the German name you seek, Steve?

 

 

[michaeldr]

Garfield's book can be accessed via Google here

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=2_xZNEXn6aoC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=A.+C.+B.+Neate&source=bl&ots=SESx9EJD5z&sig=_OpruQr6OUv1AHP4Nkm0UTHg6is&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuzcr184jUAhWHLpQKHWwQCk0Q6AEIMzAD#v=onepage&q=A. C. B. Neate&f=false

 

 

[Guest]

Michael,

 

Thanks to you and Stuart.

 

Interesting?

 

"In it Neate mentions that the contents of the haversack were passed over to a "German intelligence officer at Beersheba, one Leutnant Schilling"

 

I checked my list on known German officers sent to the Ottoman Empire but could find officer named Schilling?

 

Although my list is not all sent, it contants over 1100 officers sent to Turkey during the war.  The closest officer to that name was a Capt Schmülling, but he was on Staff at Istanbul, and its unknown if he got down to the Army HQ in Palestine?

 

He is shown in Turkish as

 

Yüzbasi Schmülling Istanbul'da Askeri heyette Tasit konvoylarindan sorumlu 

 

Another

 

Tegmen Schimmelfeng Filistin'de Tasit birligi komutani 
 

While there were a number of German Officers on staff at both Armies (7th and 8th) and Yildirim, none appear on Staff of the 3rd Corps at the time of Beersheba, unless he was attached for a peroid and returned to Army HQ before being mentioned in Ottoman records?

 

I'll have to check into this Lt Schilling to see if I missed him some where.

 

Thanks again for the details.

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 22 February , 2018 by stevebecker

[trajan]

A Turkish list I have of uncertain reliablity (perhaps the same as Steve's?) lists under Medics: "Dr. Viktor Schilling (4.Ordu Filistin bölgesi Hijyen işleri başkanı)"

Unlikely, I know...

 

Steve, have you got access to the German WW2 list of German's sent out East in WW1?

Edited 22 February , 2018 by trajan

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Yes I agree the list form the Turkish site is not that good but I've added to it and ajusted most of it to some level to be usable, but still not finish.

 

As to your question yes that was my next level, I know a General Otto Schilling served in WWII but still to confirm if he served with the Ottomans in WWI?

 

I have crossed checked many of those I found against later WWII records to see if they served in both;

 

Like

 

Beisswänger Walter    Lt    88cm Bty Gallipoli 6-15 to 1-16    1915-16    (1894-1984) from 26th RFAR (wurrttemberg) 1914-15 RTG 1-16 to 49th FAR 1917-18 later WWII Artillery commands to 1st Para Army PoW 8-5-45
 

Bodenschatz Karl-Heinrich     Capt    staff Airforce         (1890-1979) from 8th Bavarian Regt to Airforce 1916 att adjt to Manfred von Richthofen 1918 later WWII Gen Luftwaffe liaison officer between Hitler’s headquarters WIA 20-7-44 in plot to kill Hitler
 

Jaenicke Erwin    Lt    Edirne'de Atesçi Subayi (staff to) General Weber 'in komutasinda         (1890-1960) later WWII Gen 389th Div to 82nd Corps to 17th Army in Russia
 

Mellenthin Hans-Joachim von     Lt & Capt Naval    CO Turkish torpedocruiser "Berk" to UB 43 1916 to UB 49 1917 to UB 120 1918 U boat    1915-17     (1887-1971) UBoat officer Pour le Mérite 57 ships sunk (154, 662 tons) later WWII
 

Pieper Woldemar Carl Gustav Adolf     Capt    Supply power wagon train Ottoman Army    1916-18    (1878-1960) Pre war served in South-West Africa from Silesian train Battalion No 6 sons later WWII Maj admin comd Joachim, Hasso & Horst Peiper 
 

Seydlitz-Kurzbach Lothar Von    Lt to Capt    Artillery        (1888-1976) later WWII Gen 12th Div 1940-42 France to Russia to 51st Corps 1942  PoW 8-43 captured at Stalingrad collaboration with the Soviet Union released 1955 to West Germany
 

Just to list a few I found so far about 94 of the 1100 so far have been checked as both wars? but many gaps.

 

Cheers

S.B

[trajan]

On 23/02/2018 at 09:17, stevebecker said:

Mate,Yes I agree the list form the Turkish site is not that good but I've added to it and ajusted most of it to some level to be usable, but still not finish

 

Somewhat off-topic but certainly allied to it. The Turkish list I have is of Gemans who served in Ottoman terriories: https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?t=107127 I don't know if this is a direct transcript / translate from the German WW2 list. Do you know? My interest was in the medics - see: 

 

 

[Guest]

Mate,

 

So far my research has found these German officers shown as Dr (Doctor) in there ranks?

 

Böse    Dr Naval    Yarbay Dr. Böse 1918 Deniz saglik Birliklerinin en üst rütbeli subayi     1918-    
Elias     Capt Dr    Pilot Airforce Jasta 302 to OC Jasta 305 1918    1917-1918     to OC Jasta 305 1918 (replaced Steiner)
Fleishmann Otto    Dr Lt    RMO Airforce Jasta 300 5-16     1916-17    RTG 7-17
Georgi    Dr Lt    metorologist Airforce att Jasta 300 5-16 to 11-16    1916-17    
Harita    Capt Dr    Yüzbasi Andreae Prof.Dr. Harita uzmani         
Haubenreisser Walter    Dr    Dr. med        
Henrici Waldemar    Dr    Dr. med.        
Hippke Erich    Dr Lt    Adjutant of the Army Surgeon Staff of Heeresgruppe F Yildirim Army 7-17     1917-18    (1888-1969) from 54th Regt on Eastern Front later WWII Luftwaffe Dr Col Gen
Huttner or Hüttner Hans    Maj Dr    Eczacilik Dairesinde Müfettis 1. ve 5.Ordu'da Eczaci Subay         (1885-1956) later WWII Maj Gen 167th Div and 703rd Div
Krasa Kranz    Lt Dr    1/4 Mountain Bty KUK Artillery     1915-18    
Mayer Johannes    Dr    Dipl. Ing         (1893-1963) later WWII Col 501st Regt 1941 Russia to Maj Gen 328th Div 1942 to 10th Corps 1944 to Lt Gen 2nd Corps 1945 Russia 
Mayer Otto    Capt Dr    Savas Bak. Saglik dairesi 2. Baskani 5.Ordu Tuggeneral Saglik Müf. Yard        
Moosauer Siegmund    Dr Naval    unknown        later WWII Adm 
Münchau Kurt     Dr    unknown        
Prüfer Sidi    Capt Dr    Observer Airforce Intell officer Jasta 300 5-16    1916    RTG 8-16
Range    Maj Dr    Binbasi Dr . Range 1915-1918 Filistin cephesinde su ve sondaj isleri bölümü baskani         
Romich Siegfried    Lt Dr    RMO KUK Artillery     1915-18    
Scheiner Maximillian    Lt Dr    RMO HQ staff KUK Artillery         KUK
Schilling Viktor     Dr    4.Ordu Filistin bölgesi Hijyen isleri baskani        
Schultzen Wilhelm    Dr    unknown        
Speich Friedrich    Dr    unknown        
Steuber    Brig Dr    Medical officer Staff Yildirim        
Trembur Heinrich     Dr Naval    Yarbay Dr. Heinrich Trembur 1914-1918 Deniz saglik Birliklerinin en üst rütbeli subayi         
Weickmann    Capt Dr Naval    Yüzbasi Prof.Dr. Weickmann Türkiye'deki meteroloji Hava gözlem istasyonlari sorumlusu         
Weickmann Ludwig    Capt Dr    meteorological Airforce HQ Constantinople 1918 & meteorological station at Gallipoli     1918's    
Windhoff    Dr    cartogragher & surveyor Airforce shown Jasta 300 4-16    1916's    RTG 11-16
Yakops    Capt Dr    Supply officer Staff Yildirim        
 

Hope that helps your list, if not can you pass on those I missed?

 

I am yet to confirm those Doctors with the German hosp units sent to Palestine?

 

Cheers

 

S.B

Edited 23 February , 2018 by stevebecker

[trajan]

Thanks Steve,

 

Sorry for late reply but I have been rather busy... You have more than me! My interest is in a medic who won a Mejide Order 5th class... I think I might have him -  Hekim Teğmen (= Physician Leutnant) F. Schmücke, serving in a hospital at Beirut, although not listed  as a doctor. This, by the way, is related to a medal group discussed at 

 

Julian

[Guest]

Mate,

 

Thanks the list looks interesting to check out.

 

Cheers

S.B