South Lancs Regt - Change of Battalions

[Buffnut453]

One of my relatives served in both the 1/5th and 2/4th Battalions of the South Lancs Regt.  His initial TF Service No. was 4288 and he later received the number 241781.  Sadly, his service record hasn't survived so I'm looking for any ideas why he might have been changed between Battalions? 

 

Looking at "close" service numbers, it seems he enlisted some time between July and September 1915, so he probably went to France in 1916 to join the 1/5th.  The 2/4th didn't arrive in France until February 1917 so I'm wondering if he might have been wounded while serving with the 1/5th and then joined the 2/4th once he was fit again.  Another option could be that the 1/5th was milked for combat experienced personnel.

 

Are there any South Lancs Regt experts out there who can throw a little light on this topic?  In asking this question I fully anticipate that the answer may well be "we just don't know".

 

Many thanks,
Mark

[Phil Wood]

In theory his medal roll for the BWM/VM should show his battalions in the order he was with them - though it does (should?) not cover home service and I'm not convinced they always got the right order.

 

Check casualty lists to see if he is ever listed among the wounded - a break in service due to wounds or sickness is a common reason for a battalion change.  Alternatively check what happened to the battalions in early 1918 - lots were disbanded and the men were shared out, often to other battalions of the same regiment (the LLT should have this).

 

The number change is down to the renumbering of the Territorial Force in 1917, nothing to do with a change of battalion though it's worth checking (LLT again) to see which battalion was issued his new number, at least you'll know which he was with at that time. 

[Buffnut453]

Hi Phil,

 

Thanks for the ideas, particularly the timing for the service number change.  I was aware that TF service numbers changed but I wasn't aware it was universal in 1917. 

 

Where might I find the casualty lists?  That's a resource I haven't accessed yet.

 

Many thanks,
Mark

[Buffnut453]

So I did some digging and managed to locate the Casualty Lists.  I need to check the actual source image later this week but it seems my relative appears on a casualty list for 8 October 1918.  That seems pretty late for him to be reassigned to another Battalion (assuming he was with the 1/5th when he was wounded).  However, it does give me a little extra info about him that I possess before launching this thread. 

[Phil Wood]

Hazelden, R (St Helen) - I presume?  From the casualty list for 4th Oct 1918, piblished 8th Oct and available on the British Newspaper Archive (direct or via FindMyPast).

 

This source only has 1917/18 lists - see http://www.researchingww1.co.uk/ww1-casualty-lists for more ways to access this data.  I have had a quick look at the Times without success, but their indexing is pretty poor! If you know someone with a subscription to TheGenealogist he might be there for an earlier wound. Of course he might have had a month or two off with trench fever or frostbite etc, which won't show up in these lists.

 

I see he was with the 5th Bn for the renumbering - the 2/4th spell must be after this so one would hope to find a wound in the BNA, but it doesn't show up in a search.  However, while their search is, in general, better that The Times', it still isn't 100% (far from it). I haven't seen the Genealogist's data.

.

 

[Buffnut453]

Yep, that's the fella.  The surname transcription in FindMyPast was pretty horrendous.  They clearly used a automated text reader...and it failed dismally.  However, the number and home town sealed the deal.  Thanks muchly for providing the page image just to confirm it 100%.

 

I'll take a look at the BNA records although an initial look only provided links to daily casualty lists from WW2, not from WW1.  Can you point me to the First World War casualty lists at the BNA? 

 

The surname does tend to get mangled: it should be with an 's' not a 'z'...so even the above example is incorrect.  I'll try the common mis-spellings in hopes of finding his record once I know where to look.    

Edited 19 February , 2018 by Buffnut453

[Buffnut453]

Looking at the War Diary for the 1/5th Bn, there don't appear to have been any major actions on or just before 4 October 1918.  B and D Coys of the Bn were involved in an advance on 20 September resulting in 6 ORs killed, 3 officers and 37 ORs wounded, and 7 ORs missing.  Unless there was considerable delay in generating the wounded lists, It seems likely that Robert Haselden was wounded in the daily grind of the war rather than in a specific operation.

[Stephen Nulty]

4288 was issued in August 1915. The 241… series was assigned to 5th Bn, so he must have still been with them in February 1917 and would then retain that number on transfer to the 2/4th, almost certainly after recovering from wounds/illness, though I can’t find the date

 

He is listed as Robert Hasleden with the 241781 number on the 1918 Absent Voter List for St Helens, though sadly the Bn at that time is not shown

 

You can find my transcription of the 1/5th War Diary by following this link to my Dropbox - https://www.dropbox.com/s/l714lxyr1ocvs8w/SLR - 1-5 Bn - War Diary V4.pdf?dl=0

Edited 20 February , 2018 by Stephen Nulty

[Buffnut453]

Hi Stephen,

 

Thanks for the info about his TF service number.  That helps a lot with the timeline I'm trying to piece together from very fragmentary information.  If he enlisted in August 1915, it's likely he went to France in early 1916...not a guarantee, but likely.  As you note, he was still with 1/5th in Feb 1917 when the new 241-series service numbers were introduced. 

 

Agree it's frustrating that the Bn isn't identified in the Absent Voter List info...that was the first place where I found that Robert Haselden had served in the Army.  Then again, it would be boring if it was easy, right?

 

Reading the info about interpreting casualty lists, it seems possible that Robert was wounded in the 20 September attack by the 1/5th Bn.  The War Diary has a good write up of the action, including a map of the planned assault.  If that wasn't the cause of his casualty record in BNA, then he was probably a casualty of the general daily grind...or something more mundane/accidental.

 

Thanks again for the inputs.  Every little helps when we're trying to work things out without access to an individual's personnel file.

 

Kind regards,
Mark

[Stephen Nulty]

Mark

 

The diary shows a few entries from May 1916 reporting the arrival of drafts of new men. That timeline fits nicely with a

 August 1915 enlistment in my view

[Buffnut453]

That would make sense.  About 9 months from enlistment to arriving on the front line falls within the broad range of timelines that I've seen. 

 

His entry on the Absent Voter List would have been completed while he was still with 1/5th Bn given that the forms had to be returned by 18 Aug  1918.  If he was wounded on 20 September 1918, then it doesn't give much time for him to heal and return to the front to join 2/4 Bn, particularly since he doesn't appear in the Spring 1919 Absent Voter List.

[Buffnut453]

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 14:52, Stephen Nulty said:

4288 was issued in August 1915. The 241… series was assigned to 5th Bn, so he must have still been with them in February 1917 and would then retain that number on transfer to the 2/4th, almost certainly after recovering from wounds/illness, though I can’t find the date

 

He is listed as Robert Hasleden with the 241781 number on the 1918 Absent Voter List for St Helens, though sadly the Bn at that time is not shown

 

You can find my transcription of the 1/5th War Diary by following this link to my Dropbox - https://www.dropbox.com/s/l714lxyr1ocvs8w/SLR - 1-5 Bn - War Diary V4.pdf?dl=0

 

Stephen,

Apologies for the belated reply but thank you for directing me to your transcription of the 1/5th South Lancs War Diary.  That will save me a lot of time given that I have at least 3 relatives who served with that unit.

Kind regards,
Mark