'Muriel' Alberti

[Steven Broomfield]

A friend alerted me to a FB post in "The War Graves Photographic Project" of a grave of a chap from the 9th Black watch, S/12318 Private M Alberti, who was killed in April 1916. With the photo of the grave is attached a photo of a woman in BW officer's uniform.

 

The poster claims that the woman is Muriel Alberti and it is she who is Private Alberti, having served - as a woman - in the ranks of the 9th Black Watch.

 

Utter rollocks, I assume, but has anyone coma across this canard before?

[helpjpl]

Register of Soldiers effects lists name as what looks like Manril, then in brackets (Marino) Alberti. Date of death 26 April 1917.  Father Silvano:

SDGW - forename as Muriel.

MIC - M Alberte.

 

JP

 

 

[ss002d6252]

For the very important issue of non-discrimination the war gratuity doesn't specify a soldier must be male 🤔

 

Put my money in it being a man with an unfortunate name and a female relative having her picture taken in a uniform - especially when it's not even the right one.

 

Craig

 

 

Edited 16 February , 2018 by ss002d6252

[Steven Broomfield]

Thanks. "Ladies from Hell" taken to a whole new dimension. Personally I am shocked and astounded that people post fake news on FB!

[ss002d6252]

31 minutes ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Thanks. "Ladies from Hell" taken to a whole new dimension. Personally I am shocked and astounded that people post fake news on FB!

Was it from a Russian account ? It certainly sits true that you have to think twice about everything but some things just don't pass the sniff test.

Craig

[Steven Broomfield]

The thought of sniffing a lady from hell is not something on which I care to dwell.

[david murdoch]

Scottish National War Memorial has Murial Alberti, born Glasgow. From the valuation rolls the  father Silvano Alberti had  restaurant in Argyle St Glasgow.

The "death certificate" in Scotland's People is the service return for 9th Black Watch and is listed as Mauril Alberte age 21.

Backtracking I don't find a record of a birth certificate in Scotland for an Alberti around 1896 though there are several siblings born in Glasgow with good Italian names from 1905 on. On birth certificates shows the parents were  married November 1896 in Italy. So possibly not born in Scotland but arrived as an infant.  Youngest brother  Mario Alberti  born 13/4/1917, so discounts "Murial" as being a miss spelling of Mario. I think correct name should be Mauril Alberti.

I suspect the family are hidden somewhere in the 1911 Census under some mangling of their Italian name - no census record for either for either Alberti or Alberte, but they were definitely in Glasgow at this time.

[Steven Broomfield]

Thanks David.

 

Looks like the facts are getting in the way of a good story!

[barrieduncan]

Next you'll be telling us that Evelyn Wood wasn't the first female VC! 

[ss002d6252]

38 minutes ago, barrieduncan said:

Next you'll be telling us that Evelyn Wood wasn't the first female VC! 

The famous Turkish female sniper ?

 

[barrieduncan]

I'm glad someone else knows the story!

[Gardenerbill]

Flora Sandes was the only British woman officially recognised as serving in the Great War

 

Flora Sandes

[YvonneFenter]

On 2/16/2018 at 21:44, david murdoch said:

Scottish National War Memorial has Murial Alberti, born Glasgow. From the valuation rolls the  father Silvano Alberti had  restaurant in Argyle St Glasgow.

The "death certificate" in Scotland's People is the service return for 9th Black Watch and is listed as Mauril Alberte age 21.

Backtracking I don't find a record of a birth certificate in Scotland for an Alberti around 1896 though there are several siblings born in Glasgow with good Italian names from 1905 on. On birth certificates shows the parents were  married November 1896 in Italy. So possibly not born in Scotland but arrived as an infant.  Youngest brother  Mario Alberti  born 13/4/1917, so discounts "Murial" as being a miss spelling of Mario. I think correct name should be Mauril Alberti.

I suspect the family are hidden somewhere in the 1911 Census under some mangling of their Italian name - no census record for either for either Alberti or Alberte, but they were definitely in Glasgow at this time.

 

To summarise the mish-mash of "M Alberti" names ...

 

The Medal Index Card and Medal Roll show the name as "M Alberte".
The Commonwealth War Graves Commission register shows "M Alberti".
Soldiers Died in the Great War has "Muriel Alberti".
He is also named as "Muriel Alberti" on the Black Watch Museum Roll of Honour.
The Army Register of Soldiers Effects shows "Mauril Alberti (Marino Alberti)".
Rather than the usual death details in the Scottish Statutory Register of Deaths, the official Scottish death record is Army Form W3231, a "Return of Warrant Officers, Non-Commissioned Officers, and Men of the 9th Battalion Royal Highlanders Killed in Action or who have Died whilst on service abroad in the War of 1914". This names him as "Mauril Alberti".
Newspaper reports about his death published in Glasgow in 1917 name him as "Marino Alberti", which ties in with the name in brackets on the Register of Soldiers Effects.
The Glasgow Roll of Honour published in 1922 named him as "Marino Alberti".

 

Interestingly, the forename Mauril is of French origin, so I'm wondering whether after his parents marriage in Italy, they stopped off in France, where he was born and his birth was recorded with the French name Mauril, but maybe in the family he was known as Marino?

 

In the meantime, I'm trying to get further info from the Black Watch Museum about where they acquired the name "Muriel" in their Roll of Honour, and I'm also trying to get hold of some images of newspaper mentions of his death, which may have further info (or even a picture!).

 

I'm adding evidence to his page on Lives of the First World War at https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/638210 .

Edited 18 February , 2018 by YvonneFenter
Removed last sentence, which is no longer relevent.

[IanA]

On 2/16/2018 at 21:44, david murdoch said:

Scottish National War Memorial has Murial

I have seen the murial at the war memorial. Most impressive.

[Steven Broomfield]

Yvonne: thank you. The red herring on FB shows how easy it is to translate a mistake into received wisdom.

 

Mr Abernethy: you're thinking of Hilda Ogden. She was never (I believe) in the Black Watch, even though she was a Lady from Hell.

[YvonneFenter]

4 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Yvonne: thank you. The red herring on FB shows how easy it is to translate a mistake into received wisdom.

 

Mr Abernethy: you're thinking of Hilda Ogden. She was never (I believe) in the Black Watch, even though she was a Lady from Hell.

 

That is why I love Lives of the First World War - evidence based approach means you can build a story logically, and trace where all the facts in it have come from. So if there's a false assumption in the trail, you can pick it up easily.

Meanwhile,  at risk of going wildly off-topic, I can't profess to know much about sniffing Ladies from Hell, but I can offer you a story (with evidence) of a probably very smelly old goat, complete with medal card  ... https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/4346663  :-)

[Steven Broomfield]

I imagine the Regimental Lodge was pretty upset when he died.

[david murdoch]

23 hours ago, YvonneFenter said:

 

That is why I love Lives of the First World War - evidence based approach means you can build a story logically, and trace where all the facts in it have come from. So if there's a false assumption in the trail, you can pick it up easily.

Meanwhile,  at risk of going wildly off-topic, I can't profess to know much about sniffing Ladies from Hell, but I can offer you a story (with evidence) of a probably very smelly old goat, complete with medal card  ... https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/4346663  :-)

Yvonne. I've been looking on Scotlands People at a wider search for Alberti in Scotland  - The records indicate there were several brothers and sisters. Getting no Census returns for Alberti. I did a search just using the Italian first names of a couple of the kids, and this brings them up as they are listed as Albert. So now found a Census 1911 return showing the family living at 52 Douglas St, Blythswood, Glasgow. On the Census return it's clearly spelled Alberti. 

Silvano Alberti Head age 38  Mosaic Worker

Da Alberti  Wife age 39  (Correct name Ida).

Ma---io son aged 13

Teodozio son aged 6 (Born Blythwood Glasgow 1905) died 1962 aged 56

Rugero son aged 4 (Born Blythwood Glasgow 1907)

Olvrado son aged 4 months (Born Blythwood Glasgow 1910)   died 1912 aged 15 months.

+ one Italian lodger aged 38 also a Mosaic worker

 

following on from this  further children born after 1911

Palmida daughter (Born Blythwood Glasgow 1913) died 2006 aged 93

Alurado son (Born Blythwood Glasgow 1915) died 1932 aged 17 

Mario son (Born Blythwood Glasgow 1917)

Danillo son (Born Blythwood Glasgow 1922)

Note the difference of spellings between written on Census return and how they are in the records. Names are correct from the birth certificates. I'd imagine the parents had strong Italian accents and likely spoke Italian at home. The kids with traditional Italian names would have good Glaswegian accents and probably end up getting "local" names. 

 

Unfortunately the name of our man on the census is still not 100% clear. Also the census shows the parents as Italian but  some of the children born in Italy which is not correct.  Not found a hit for any Silvano or his wife on the 1901 Census. As they had 7 children born and correctly registered in Glasgow, my feeling is they arrived sometime after 1901 Census with their eldest boy. The parents were married 18th November 1896 in Italy and the age of 13 given would put his birth year as 1898. So he may have added a couple of years when he enlisted and actualy been 19 when he died and not 21 as on the Service Return! Given the number of children they had hints they maybe had others (prior to coming to Scotland) who did not survive. Another daughter Dina crops up getting married in Glasgow in 1925 aged 23 - so born 1902, but not registered in Scotland or with them on 1911 Census. 

I have the death certificate for the mother Ida Alberti  - she died in Pollock, Glasgow 5/10/1954 aged 78. Her husband Silvano is noted as being deceased, but I don't find a death register for him - so he died prior to 1954 and possibly outside Scotland.

I will look at later marriages and births for Alberti as I'm sure given the size of the family there will be living relatives.

 

Edited 19 February , 2018 by david murdoch

[pjwmacro]

23 hours ago, YvonneFenter said:

Meanwhile,  at risk of going wildly off-topic, I can't profess to know much about sniffing Ladies from Hell, but I can offer you a story (with evidence) of a probably very smelly old goat, complete with medal card  ... https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/4346663  :-)

Sorry Yvonne, but I couldn't resist giving Taffy IV a remember! Best Paul

[YvonneFenter]

On 2/19/2018 at 21:34, david murdoch said:

Yvonne. I've been looking on Scotlands People at a wider search for Alberti in Scotland  - The records indicate there were several brothers and sisters. Getting no Census returns for Alberti. I did a search just using the Italian first names of a couple of the kids, and this brings them up as they are listed as Albert. So now found a Census 1911 return showing the family living at 52 Douglas St, Blythswood, Glasgow. On the Census return it's clearly spelled Alberti. 

Silvano Alberti Head age 38  Mosaic Worker ...

 

David ... apologies for not thanking you sooner for all the effort you've gone to on this. I will incorporate your research into Marino's story on Lives. It's amazing how someone making a false assumption about a photo can tempt a few of us into spending hours on tracking down the story of a person who was hitherto neglected! But at least we will now sure this man is properly remembered.  Thank you!

[david murdoch]

Need to do a bit more digging. His father and the lodger were terrazzo floor layers, and probably worked together. They almost certainly came to Glasgow  to work in this trade, as it was popular in banks, hotels and public buildings. Likely some of their work still survives in central Glasgow. On his mother's death certificate gives her father also as a terrazzo floor layer in Italy.

Regarding Marino - by his age on the census, I have the feeling he enlisted under age, and that would make him actually 19 when he died. Looking at his medal roll many of the close service numbers were also casualties, but when looking them up several of them enlisted in cities in England. This hints that these men were transferred into 9th Black Watch possibly as casualty replacements, so he possibly was with another unit on home service prior to this. There are 23 Black Watch casualties at  Guemappe British Cemetery, Wancourt. Of these 11 including Alberti died on 26th April 1917 and the other 12 all on 23rd April 1917. I will look into these as possibly can narrow down to company and also what happened to them from the war diary. They are all 9th Battalion (originals have 14-15 Stars) and one is noted B Coy. 

I'll be back in Scotland next week, and I have to visit the Black Watch Museum in Perth on other business, so I'll see if I can find out more.

I'm almost certain there will be descendants of his siblings in the Glasgow area. 

[YvonneFenter]

1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

...

I'll be back in Scotland next week, and I have to visit the Black Watch Museum in Perth on other business, so I'll see if I can find out more.

I'm almost certain there will be descendants of his siblings in the Glasgow area. 

David - you are a star - thank you SO much for all you are doing - I really appreciate it. 

I always think it's so sad that there are so many people like this, who were killed in the war, and are now so forgotten that it's really difficult to find out about them.

So many of those killed are well documented, but the stories of others like this man are scarcely mentioned.

I was looking earlier at some of the Royal Indian Marine men ... yet another group that few people know of .... but that's definitely for another thread!

Thanks again for all your help.

[david murdoch]

12 hours ago, YvonneFenter said:

David - you are a star - thank you SO much for all you are doing - I really appreciate it. 

I always think it's so sad that there are so many people like this, who were killed in the war, and are now so forgotten that it's really difficult to find out about them.

So many of those killed are well documented, but the stories of others like this man are scarcely mentioned.

I was looking earlier at some of the Royal Indian Marine men ... yet another group that few people know of .... but that's definitely for another thread!

Thanks again for all your help.

There is likely to be family information in the Glasgow archives at the Mitchell Library. They have school records, burial records, and also Catholic church records and baptisms ect. For sure they would have been  practicing Catholics given their origins. I still never found a Scottish record for his father's death as he died sometime before his wife in 1915. There may be a family gravestone, and he may be recorded on this. I would hazard a guess he probably was following his fathers footsteps as a floor layers just prior to the war. The younger brother who died in 1932 was also a floor layer.

[YvonneFenter]

Thanks for all the help on this one. Just to close it out, the lovely folks at the Mitchell Library found me this press cutting from the Evening News.

 

I've added it to his Lives of the First World War page, and will also add all the other available information about him,  at https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/638210  so what we know of him will be properly remembered.

 

R.I.P. Muriel / Murial / Mauril / Marino Alberti. 

[Steven Broomfield]

Yvonne: thank you.