Michael Lowrey Posted 3 January , 2005 Share Posted 3 January , 2005 Reading through Harald Bendert's book on German UB type submarines, he has the UB 10 as downing a British plane while the submarine was on a short patrol on Apri 30 and May 1, 1916 off the Flanders coast. Does anyone know the identity of this plane and its crew? Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 3 January , 2005 Share Posted 3 January , 2005 There is one similar action shown, but on the 6th May 1916: FSLt ATM Cowley and Lt RM Inge were forced to land in their Short 184 (serial 8038) and taken prisoner by a submarine. Info from 'The Sky Their Battlefield', United Kingdon and Home Waters section, by Trevor Henshaw. I wonder if your plane was French....?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 3 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2005 There is one similar action shown, but on the 6th May 1916: FSLt ATM Cowley and Lt RM Inge were forced to land in their Short 184 (serial 8038) and taken prisoner by a submarine. Info from 'The Sky Their Battlefield', United Kingdon and Home Waters section, by Trevor Henshaw. I wonder if your plane was French....?? Pete, It's certainly possible that the plane was French or that UB 10's claim was in error. Interestingly enough, I came across the reference while trying to figure out which U-boat picked up Cowley and Inge, for which there's no reference in German secondary sources... Given that submarines downing planes is pretty rare during WWI, I'm not sire that we can exclude that it's that the same event with a date wrong somewhere... Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Roberts Posted 4 January , 2005 Share Posted 4 January , 2005 Given that submarines downing planes is pretty rare during WWI It is believed that the RAF Coastal Class airship C25 was downed by a submarine on 31/7/18. It was searching for a damaged U-Boat, but disappeared and one of its propellors was found near the search area. The submarine [? which one] also failed to return so impossible to verify what happened, but this was the theory at the time. Airship crews were well aware that approaching a submarine with a deck gun in a hydrogen-filled craft was a Bad Idea, but something must have gone wrong on this occasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 4 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2005 Given that submarines downing planes is pretty rare during WWI It is believed that the RAF Coastal Class airship C25 was downed by a submarine on 31/7/18. It was searching for a damaged U-Boat, but disappeared and one of its propellors was found near the search area. The submarine [? which one] also failed to return so impossible to verify what happened, but this was the theory at the time. Airship crews were well aware that approaching a submarine with a deck gun in a hydrogen-filled craft was a Bad Idea, but something must have gone wrong on this occasion. Adrian, The only U-boats at sea on July 31, 1918 that did not return were UB 107 and U 156. The wreck of UB 107 has been located and identified (probably accidental loss). U 156 was off the North American coast at the time. It's possible that the submarine survived its encounter with the airship or C25 was an accidental/operational loss that had nothing to with a submarine (the latter may be more likely). If you can give me even roughly where C25 went down, I should be able to figure out if a U-boat was involved -- I have the war diaries for most of the boats in existence late in the war. I've got a half dozen or so airplanes downed by U-boat aside from the May 1916 losses. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphin Posted 4 January , 2005 Share Posted 4 January , 2005 Given that submarines downing planes is pretty rare during WWI, I'm not sure that we can exclude that it's that the same event with a date wrong somewhere... Michael The mention in The Sky Their Battlefield says that the aeroplane was forced to land in the sea and that the crew were picked up by a U-Boat. The two events might be coincidental, rather than directly related, ie due to a mechanical fault, or some other internal problem, the aeroplane had to alight in the vicinity of the submarine, instead of being shot down by the U-Boat. Just a thought. Gareth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 4 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2005 Gareth, You're right, my usage was less than exact. It's certainly possible that Crowley and Inge's plane landed because of some mechanical fault and then an U-boat finished it off and took them prisoner. Of the six cases I referred to, half actually involved an U-boat sinking or towing in an already disabled French or British plane. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Roberts Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 Michael If you can give me even roughly where C25 went down, I should be able to figure out if a U-boat was involved -- My information is from the book "Battlebags: British Airships in the First World War", by Ces Mowthorpe (Wrens Parks Publishing 1995). It does stress there is no proof of what happened, but this was the theory at the time and it says "confirmation was sought from German records after the war but ...the U-boat in question never returned to base after that patrol" - unfortunately doesn't say which one. C25 was last heard of at 18.40 on 31/7/18, "60 miles East of Aberdeen" If you can shed any light that would be great! Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 5 January , 2005 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2005 Adrian, The area where C25 was lost greatly limits the possibilities. The Scottish east coast was a secondary patrol area where few U-boats operated at any given time. There was a small force of UBII and UCII class boats (plus the occassional UBIII working up) based in Germany that conducted these patrols. The Flanders-based boats didn't operate that far north. At the same time, C25 apparently was not far enough east to have encountered the larger Germany-based boats on their way to and from the Atlantic via the north of Scotland. If the loss of C25 was caused by a German submarine, the possibilities would be UB 122, UC 40 or UC 58. I have the war diaries (KTBs) of UB 122 and UC 40 on microfilm. There's nothing in my notes to suggest either one was responsible but I will double check the microfilm to be sure. That said, the more interesting boat is UC 58, which sailed on July 25th, 1918 to lay mines off Aberdeen. She returned home. I do not have her KTB as yet but I was already planning on including it in the next batch I ordered. I should be able to give you a definitive answer in abou six weeks. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Roberts Posted 5 January , 2005 Share Posted 5 January , 2005 Michael Thanks; if you get anything else please do post it up or email me. The only other clue is that apparently C25 was one of several airships "looking for a damaged U-boat" Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted 4 November , 2012 Share Posted 4 November , 2012 Does anyone here possess a crew list from C.25? I am attempting to confirm that my great grandmother's brother was a member of that particular crew. Any help would be appreciated. I am seeking an RAF man named Thomas Pooley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 November , 2012 Share Posted 4 November , 2012 AFAIK U boats did not carry deck mounted AA guns until WW2. The WW1 deck mounted guns were intended as anti ship weapons and had a relatively low elevation (so the aircraft would have to be flying low) . Sights would not have been suitable for AA work and the ammunition would have been contact fuzed (so a direct hit would be necessary). Under these circumstance it would seem that a U boat crew would have to be very lucky to bring down an aircraft with the deck gun. In WW2 when U boats began to be armed with four barrelled 20mm cannon AA they were instructed to "fight it out on the surface" (one reason for some Mosquitos being armed with a 6 pounder automatic and Beaufighters with rockets). In WW1 the SOP appears to have been to get down to periscope depth (or deeper) on the approach of aircraft and stay there until they went away. I would guess that subs bringing down aircraft (as opposed to surfacing after one had landed) would be a pretty rare event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 November , 2012 Share Posted 4 November , 2012 UB 10 didn't have a deck gun as such. She did have a mounting for a machine gun at the rear of the conning tower. The gun was kept below and would have to be brought up (together with the ammunition belts etc) and mounted when the boat surfaced (and taken below before submerging - so you wouldn't want to have it mounted if there was a likely hood of having to crash dive). I suppose that an Mg might have a better chance of bringing down a low flying aircraft but the same problems over the mounting and sights would apply. UB 10 was quite a successful boat but various histories of it do not mention any aircraft being brought down.Reinhold Saltzwedel was her commander at the time mentioned in the OP and his biog does not mention it either so either it was thought too minor to mention (strange) or it didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topgun1918 Posted 4 November , 2012 Share Posted 4 November , 2012 norton65ca As far as I can see, the crew of C25 as Captain Harry Robert Hopperton, Corporal Louis Gray Faiers, Air Mechanic, 1st Class Arthur Charles Groves and Air Mechanic, 2nd Class Edward Kiddle Adkinson and . I have Sergeant Thomas Pooley as having died on 2 August 1918 - I'll see if I have any other details. Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 4 November , 2012 Share Posted 4 November , 2012 It seems a very big jump from' looking for a damaged U boat and didn't return' to being 'shot down by that U boat', especially if the U boat never returned - it could have sunk shortly after being damaged. Coincidence seems very likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted 4 November , 2012 Share Posted 4 November , 2012 Thanks Graeme! Much appreciated. I have a cryptic internet query on rootsweb from another distant relative which seemed to indicate he was killed in an airship incident. Being as he is listed on the CWGC website as dying on Aug 2nd (which corroborates with the parish record I have) and there are no other airship related incidents listed around that date, I am working under somewhat of an assumption. (I have not been able to contact the writer of the internet query as it was from 2001 and the email address is defunct), however I have been able to confirm that he recieved an aeronaut certificate in late June of 1918. I do believe he was on C.25 and was lost on July 31st when the airship was reported not returned to base, with his official date of death being listed as Aug 2nd.when the loss was confirmed, but this is informed guesswork only, based on the internet query and the dates concerned. He was originally enisted (according to the rootsweb question) in the Royal Navy but was invalided out to the RAF? : http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/LONDON/2001-02/0983393773 but was serving under admiralty command in RNAS airships? http://raec.websds.net/PDF/19180725.PDF this pdf (entry 179, page 14) indicates the date of his being awarded the aeronaut certification. I am also assuming that aeronaut would refer to a member of an airship or balloon crew as opposed to a pilot of a fixed wing aircraft. Any help most welcome as this is the last missing link required to confirm the fate of my great grandmother's brother. cheers, Gary J Parker Victoria BC Canada Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted 4 November , 2012 Share Posted 4 November , 2012 another thing which would be greatly appreciated is a photograph of the crew of the airship. I too have now loacted the above four names, very odd that only four are listed. On the airships online listing the dead are five, not four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 5 November , 2012 Share Posted 5 November , 2012 Hi, In the war diary of the Marinekorps Flandern I found no mention on 30/4/1916 nor on 1/5/1916 that UB10 shot down a British plane. On the contrary I found on 24/71916 that UC 10 shot down with machine gun fire a Short 830 regards, Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cnock Posted 5 November , 2012 Share Posted 5 November , 2012 URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/uc10c.jpg/][/url] Uploaded with ImageShack.us The Short 870 of FLt Bailey en FLt Mardock brought in at Zeebrugge by Torpedoboat A14. After they had been downed by MG fire of UC 10, the crew surrendered to seaplane Friedrichshafen FF 33 nr.639 Cnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmsk212 Posted 5 November , 2012 Share Posted 5 November , 2012 Airmen Died in the Great War shows for 2nd August 1918 :- Sgt T Pooley, Longside AS. Accidentally killed while working on airship. UK Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted 5 November , 2012 Share Posted 5 November , 2012 Hi Steve, Thank you so very much for this information, I wasn't right but I am glad you have posted this information. I have found the reference and I will be looking at this book in the near future. cheers, Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFF Posted 5 November , 2012 Share Posted 5 November , 2012 Crewmen Oc RAF Costal Class Ship C25 http://www.roll-of-honour.com/Cambridgeshire/March.html http://www.ns11.org/the-last-crew/captain-walter-k-f-g-warneford/ http://www.ns11.org/north-sea-patrols-%E2%80%93-p-e-maitland/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norton65ca Posted 5 November , 2012 Share Posted 5 November , 2012 Thanks PFF for the links! Much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFF Posted 6 November , 2012 Share Posted 6 November , 2012 Glad to be of help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brackles Posted 21 February , 2013 Share Posted 21 February , 2013 I was interested to read Cnock's posts about the shooting down of Lts Bailey and Mardock by the german submarine UC10, as I have been researching Bailey in connection with his later career with Imperial Airways. In an interview he gave long after the end of WW1 he stated that after he put his damaged aircraft down on the sea they continued to fire on the submarine and killed and wounded some of the crew. I wondered if the war diary of the Marinekorps Flandern referred to in Cnocks post made any mention of the casualties. I suppose that the reluctance of the airmen to give up the fight was why the Friedrichshafen FF 33 joined the fray? Thanks. Brackles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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