Unknown Officer 3rd Dragoon Guards

[dickaren]

Not sure if this has been looked at before but there is an unknown officer of 3rd Dragoon Guards buried in Crucifix Corner Cemetery Plot 3 Row D grave 17. The remains were recovered from 62d.SE.P19.b.90.80. There are only two missing officers from this regiment on the Pozieres and Arras Memorials ( I have discounted the Loos Memorial as too far from where the remains were found) - Lt Norman Toynbee King 22.3.18  and 2nd Lt Matthew Harvey Dulson 11.4.17. Given the location where the remains were recovered it would look like Lt. King is the most likely candidate. Does anyone have access to the whereabouts of the regiment on the dates of death and therefore rule out either of these men.

Richard

[thetrenchrat22]

I think I had a quick look at, whilst looking at another casualty in the said Cemetery.  

 

I was was thinking on the lines of Lt King, due to the fact the map reference nearly matches where Private Eddy was found at 62d. SE. P. b. 7. 1. 

 

But this is as far, I got.  

[micks]

Hi Dickaren

 

Last year I presented a case to the CWGC regarding this grave. Lt King was killed near the village of Viry which is situated a good distance to the east of this location. 2/Lt Dulson was killed just to the west of the village of Monchy-le-Preux  ( East of Arras ). However 2/Lt Massey-Lynch who was attached to the 3rd Dragoon Guards from the 6th Reserve Cavalry Regiment died at this location on the 4th April 1918.

 

 

Mick

[dickaren]

12 hours ago, micks said:

Hi Dickaren

 

Last year I presented a case to the CWGC regarding this grave. Lt King was killed near the village of Viry which is situated a good distance to the east of this location. 2/Lt Dulson was killed just to the west of the village of Monchy-le-Preux  ( East of Arras ). However 2/Lt Massey-Lynch who was attached to the 3rd Dragoon Guards from the 6th Reserve Cavalry Regiment died at this location on the 4th April 1918.

 

 

Mick

Thanks Micks,

Keep us posted on your case.

Richard

[micks]

                                               

 

 

                              2/Lt Wilfred John Massey-Lynch

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                                                

                                                               

[micks]

Whoops, before anyone asks, no he was not a twin. Some how I have duplicated the image.

[dickaren]

17 hours ago, micks said:

Whoops, before anyone asks, no he was not a twin. Some how I have duplicated the image.

Thanks Micks,

Always nice to put a face to the soldier.

Richard

[Guest]

Hi there, Richard. I was really pleased to read about this as Wilfrid is my first cousin, twice removed, and someone I have been trying to find out more about. 

I came across this from the Imperial War Museum: https://ukniwm.wordpress.com/2011/03/22/memorial-rediscovered-after-80-years/ 

which has some good information about him. I have seen the photo before, and he does have a strong look of my Dad's side of the family. 

 

Please let let me know if you find out anything more, so that I can let my relatives know.

 

kind regards,

 

James Turner

 

Especially  poignant as it is now almost 100years since he died, (4/04/18)

[micks]

James

 

Based upon the evidence there is little doubt that 2/Lt Massey-Lynch is buried in grave III.D.17 at Crucifix Corner Cemetery. There were four officers from this regiment who were killed in France during the First World War with only Wilfred being at this location when he died on the 4th April 1918.

Due to the amount of cases that the CWGC are processing it will be a few years before they work through this report. The CWGC will when present the evidence to the Ministry of Defence who will then independently analyse the facts. Your family will then be informed and a re-dedication service will then be organised.

 

Mick

[Guest]

Mick, I cannot thank you enough for this information. It is good to know this extra detail, and I will look forward to what the CWGC tell later on. 

 

James

[micks]

A quick update regarding this topic and the report which I presented to the CWGC in 2017. On Friday the JCCC informed me that my evidence has been accepted and a rededication service for Second Lieutenant Wilfred Massey-Lynch will be held in late 2023.

[Matlock1418]

On 09/10/2022 at 01:51, micks said:

A quick update regarding this topic and the report which I presented to the CWGC in 2017. On Friday the JCCC informed me that my evidence has been accepted and a rededication service for Second Lieutenant Wilfred Massey-Lynch will be held in late 2023.

Well done. 

M

Edit: Interesting to note that the rededication is apparently scheduled for late 2023 - but in the meantime it looks like he is currently/will remain commemorated on their online site as being on the Poziers Memorial [where his name is likely to remain for a while yet/until the panel need replacing in line with their policy - which seems fair enough on financial grounds] - makes you wonder if CWGC couldn't at least put an interim note on the current online record, Additional Info, advising of his newly recognised grave at Crucifix Corner. And then amend it again later.  As it stands his online commemoration will remain 'out of date' [like it seems many others who have been accepted but not yet been rededicated].  Changing the details/annotating the details on the online system wouldn't seem to affect any rededication.  Along the lines of 'currently commemorated PM but known buried at CC' and afterwards 'formerly commemorated at PM'.  Such a shame CWGC aren't keeping the wider public appraised of the good result now recognised. Unfortunately often it all seems a bit 'Secret Squirrel' by CWGC, before rededications and even after rededications and panel replacements.

Edited 25 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
Edit and then the usual typo

[dickaren]

Well done. Good to see another case solved.

Richard

[jaykayu]

Congratulations Mick.

[andrew pugh]

Hi Mick

Congratulations and well done, another one of the missing list. How long did your case take from start to finish?

Kind Regards

Andy 

[micks]

Hi Andy

The total period of time for this case is over five years. In the past eighteen months I have had a large number of my reports approved from 2017/18. So the new normal is four to five years. Back in 2015/16 they went through the system in about eighteen months.

Mick

[Matlock1418]

8 hours ago, micks said:

The total period of time for this case is over five years. In the past eighteen months I have had a large number of my reports approved from 2017/18. So the new normal is four to five years. Back in 2015/16 they went through the system in about eighteen months.

That's a rather depressing timescale.

But as before - well done.

M

[andrew pugh]

Hi Matlock1418

Have a look on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and go to the Non Com Report New Memorial to the South Africans, Questions about the Special Committee. This may be the reason for the long wait for the cases presented by us.

Regards

Andy

[Matlock1418]

53 minutes ago, andrew pugh said:

Have a look on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and go to the Non Com Report New Memorial to the South Africans, Questions about the Special Committee. This may be the reason for the long wait for the cases presented by us.

Struggling to latch on to your exact reference at CWGC - any possibility of a link please?

I suspect that we now have a good old fashioned British queue.

But even at A***, M*******, S*********, T****, W******* and many other retailers they get more staff in to staff the checkouts when the queue has built up! 

Do they implement any form of meaningful triage?  Any attempt [that I have 'sort of perceived'] has not been meaningful in my opinion.  Who is the gatekeeper?

Of course suitable aptitude, knowledge and training required.  Perhaps that is also part of the problem. ??

And as for the follow-up ... well that stretches things even further.  Phew ....... !!!

Edit: Ah, think I have potentially found it ... https://www.cwgc.org/non-commemoration-report/questions-about-the-special-committee ... And perhaps everyone else now suffers ??

I am struggling to learn more about the following [even when it only seems to relate to part of CWGC's activities - So what about the rest/elsewhere?]

Abstracted ....

Which are the most important recommendations?

Although all the recommendations are important, we are prioritising several areas simultaneously, including:

• The addition of newly found names to our records; = ????? Not very quickly it would seem.  Many already accepted names not yet showing on the public commemoration database
• A more flexible policy to commemorative criteria; =  ?????  I would be especially interested to see that when it comes to recognising non-military or I/CWGC official documents, such as UK MoP records
• Contextual information at key sites;
• Further and ongoing research;  Have they time and resources? - They seem to struggle when the general public make their non-comm cases [having done much of the work for them]
• Transparency online; = ?????  Would be useful to publicly see the 'Non-Comm Queue' - and the triage, initial and appeal system(s), process(es) and decision(s) too.  And the collaboration with/information from the 'relevant national authorities'

and,

• Establishing an Expert Advisory Panel. = ?????  Who?

These points could do with being more widely applied I think.

What review and implementation of systems to cope?

And no mention of resources, training and increase in the knowledge of those involved.

A wait of five years [only] now seems rather optimisitic.  I'm still depressed.

How can we help move them along?

M

Edited 25 October , 2022 by Matlock1418
edit

[andrew pugh]

Hi M

Sorry I meant the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website

Regards

Andy

[Matlock1418]

7 minutes ago, andrew pugh said:

Sorry I meant the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website

Think I got it, above - did I? 

Your thoughts??

M

[jaykayu]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

How can we help move them along?

CWGC use volunteers in their Archives section as well as throughout their organisation - why not use them in the Commemorations team? If appropriately trained they could only speed up the work CWGC do on each case.

Similar volunteers could also help the National Army Museum's War Graves Adjudication Unit, who after they receive a case from the CWGC review it on behalf of the MOD.  It's a lack of people resources that cause each case to now take 5 years - use trained volunteers to speed this up. Many not for profit organisations/charities/museums can only exist because of volunteers nowadays. 

J

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, jaykayu said:

CWGC use volunteers in their Archives section as well as throughout their organisation - why not use them in the Commemorations team? If appropriately trained they could only speed up the work CWGC do on each case.

Similar volunteers could also help the National Army Museum's War Graves Adjudication Unit, who after they receive a case from the CWGC review it on behalf of the MOD.  It's a lack of people resources that cause each case to now take 5 years - use trained volunteers to speed this up. Many not for profit organisations/charities/museums can only exist because of volunteers nowadays. 

Agreed it's a common way.

How to get the will to that way??

M

[andrew pugh]

Hi

I am going to a rededication service in France on the 17th November for one of my soldiers. There will be  folks there representing the CWGC and the JCCC I will confront them together and tell them how we all feel after the service. Five years to finalise a case it's a joke. I will let you know what the outcome is. 

Regards

Andy 

[Chesterboy]

7 hours ago, andrew pugh said:

Hi

I am going to a rededication service in France on the 17th November for one of my soldiers. There will be  folks there representing the CWGC and the JCCC I will confront them together and tell them how we all feel after the service. Five years to finalise a case it's a joke. I will let you know what the outcome is. 

Regards

Andy 

Andy, 

yesterday whilst speaking to a work colleague, he mentioned he is going to france on 17th November for a rededication service for his great great uncle

the grave is at Loos, the actual details I can’t remember. 
 

who is the soldier rededication service are you going too

will