Bayonet Marks and Bayonet I.D

[GWF1967]

Hi, 

a couple of bayonets with (to me) odd markings. 

1. P1907 with poorly struck crown and scrubbed Pall Mall, has the reverse also been scrubbed?

2. P. 1913 Remington, with American and British markings. Would this be made for British use, or intended for export, but finished for American use? The American style scabbard also appears to have a matching British inspection stamp. Green painted grips and scabbard. 

3. Can anyone identify the mystery bayonet shown in the last three pictures please. 

[Andrew Upton]

1 hour ago, GWF1967 said:

3. Can anyone identify the mystery bayonet shown in the last three pictures please. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Italian Vetterli bayonet - google that, should give you more than enough information.

[4thGordons]

2 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

2. P. 1913 Remington, with American and British markings. Would this be made for British use, or intended for export, but finished for American use? The American style scabbard also appears to have a matching British inspection stamp. Green painted grips and scabbard. 

 

 

The green painted bayonet was produced under the British contract for Pattern 1913 bayonets but  was perhaps not delivered 10/17 is very late to be still stamped with the UK marks and absorbed under the US Contract and accepted for service by the US as an M1917 bayonet.

The scabbard is made by Jewell I think.

Interesting to see that much green paint - it is likely later (ie not WWI) - it may be related to WWII service or it may have been added later in an unofficial context.

[shippingsteel]

2 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

1. P1907 with poorly struck crown and scrubbed Pall Mall, has the reverse also been scrubbed?

2. P. 1913 Remington, with American and British markings. 

3. Can anyone identify the mystery bayonet shown in the last three pictures please. 

 

1. I think this P1907 may have been through the Indian "refurbishment" program which did involve a whole lot of scrubbing back and removing of markings. The remaining mark on the ricasso I believe could be a partial Indian Government inspection mark ie. IG 2

 

2. This P1913 was produced towards the very end of the British contract, and when the US took over the production these remaining undelivered stocks were overstamped and "repurposed" as US M1917 bayonets. As Chris mentioned the October 1917 date is quite late (but not unheard of) to bear the British markings, as the changeover occurred during September that year. August and September are the most common dates with the October dates more rarely seen.

 

3. As Andrew indicated this is a cutdown Italian Vetterli bayonet. Known as a Sciabola-Baionetta Modello 70/87/15 the shortening of existing M70/87 bayonets was undertaken during 1915. These modified bayonets were usually issued with the obsolete Vetterli rifles that had had their barrels relined and updated to suit the current 6.5mm service calibre.   

[GWF1967]

7 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

Italian Vetterli bayonet - google that, should give you more than enough information.

 

7 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

 

The green painted bayonet was produced under the British contract for Pattern 1913 bayonets but  was perhaps not delivered 10/17 is very late to be still stamped with the UK marks and absorbed under the US Contract and accepted for service by the US as an M1917 bayonet.

The scabbard is made by Jewell I think.

Interesting to see that much green paint - it is likely later (ie not WWI) - it may be related to WWII service or it may have been added later in an unofficial context.

 

6 hours ago, shippingsteel said:

 

1. I think this P1907 may have been through the Indian "refurbishment" program which did involve a whole lot of scrubbing back and removing of markings. The remaining mark on the ricasso I believe could be a partial Indian Government inspection mark ie. IG 2

 

2. This P1913 was produced towards the very end of the British contract, and when the US took over the production these remaining undelivered stocks were overstamped and "repurposed" as US M1917 bayonets. As Chris mentioned the October 1917 date is quite late (but not unheard of) to bear the British markings, as the changeover occurred during September that year. August and September are the most common dates with the October dates more rarely seen.

 

3. As Andrew indicated this is a cutdown Italian Vetterli bayonet. Known as a Sciabola-Baionetta Modello 70/87/15 the shortening of existing M70/87 bayonets was undertaken during 1915. These modified bayonets were usually issued with the obsolete Vetterli rifles that had had their barrels relined and updated to suit the current 6.5mm service calibre.   

Many thanks for your time and information gents.

[Guest]

Hi guys.. New here... But a friend has a bayonet with these markings...I can't find anything on it. Obviously the one pic shows it's a 1913 Remington...Can you help?

[peregrinvs]

Yes, it’s a 1913 Pattern bayonet for the .303 1914 Pattern rifle made by Remington in April 1917. The markings on the rear of the ricasso are inspection markings. I expect someone will give you some more details.

[Gernika]

Vetterli Vitali 1871 if correctly remember but chopped length and quillon.

Edited 12 March , 2019 by Gernika

[trajan]

11 hours ago, Gernika said:

Vetterli Vitali 1871 if correctly remember but chopped length and quillon.

 

Now that had me confused for a second coming immediately after a post showing a P.1913 Remington! I guess you mean the one in the OP as I can't see anything else like it here!

[Richard owens]

Hi can anyone help me with some information on this bayonet please 

[Andrew Upton]

7 hours ago, Richard owens said:

Hi can anyone help me with some information on this bayonet please 

Have a look at the link below. Yours is identical, bar the date being for May 1917:

British 1913 Pattern WW1 Bayonet. Remington 1917 | Bygone Blades
 

[sgt-maj]

Richard Owens,

The bayonet you enquire about is a standard British Pattern-1913, manufactured by Remington in May ( 5 ) 1917 ( 17 ). The right ricasso stampings of : Crown/A4/A, and Crown/4/A, are standard individual inspectors stamps for Enfield inspectors based with Remington USA. The P13 bayonet was manufactured for the British during WW1 by Remington and Winchester.

[sgt-maj]

Guest.

The bayonet you enquire about is a standard British Pattern-1913, manufactured by Remington in May ( 4 ) 1917 ( 17 ). The right ricasso stampings of : Crown/C1/A, and Crown/7/A, are standard individual inspectors stamps for Enfield inspectors based with Remington USA. The P13 bayonet was manufactured for the British during WW1 by Remington and Winchester.

GWF1967

The bayonet you enquire about is also a standard British Pattern-1913, manufactured by Remington. British contracts for the P13 ended in the latter part of 1917. this left approx 250,000 P13's in various stages of manufacture in America. When America entered WW1, they were greatly in need of rifles to supplement their supply of Springfields. They purchased the P13's that remained in the USA. Those that had already been stamped by British inspectors... had those stampings either cancelled by crosshatching or peening ( as your has been ), and the addition of 'U.S.' being stamped on the same ricasso. Examples which had not been stamped on the right ricasso, had full U.S. arsenal stamps added. 

A point to note is that only Remington examples were purchased and restamped. All Winchester P13's had by this time been delivered... completing their contracts.

[Nigel Sloan]

A cold Sunday night in January, mooching around the bowels of our WWII period apartment building in Toronto (Yonge & Lawrence) we discover  a bayonet among some junk in a corner. It doesn't look British so is it German, possibly Austrian ?  Closer inspection reveals "US" stamped on its hilt and "1913" then we notice what appear to be increments of measurement along the blade. A quick "Google" and the contributors to this site solve the mystery for us n a New York minute . We've found a P1913 bayonet made by Remington etc. more than we would ever wish to know. Thank you.

[Pete_C]

5 hours ago, Nigel Sloan said:

A cold Sunday night in January, mooching around the bowels of our WWII period apartment building in Toronto (Yonge & Lawrence) we discover  a bayonet among some junk in a corner. It doesn't look British so is it German, possibly Austrian ?  Closer inspection reveals "US" stamped on its hilt and "1913" then we notice what appear to be increments of measurement along the blade. A quick "Google" and the contributors to this site solve the mystery for us n a New York minute . We've found a P1913 bayonet made by Remington etc. more than we would ever wish to know. Thank you.

Hi Nigel

Congratlations, sounds like you've successfully identified the correct pattern using the vast bayonet expertise available on this forum. I'm not one of the true bayonet experts but I am intrigued by your reference to 'increments of measurement along the blade'  - would you be able to post a photograph of the bayonet, please?

All the best,

Pete

[Nigel Sloan]

Dear Pete,

Please forgive the tardiness of my reply.  As requested here are some photos of the aforementioned bayonet.

Upon reflection and closer inspection what I believed to be measured, ruler like, increments on the blade are most likely random marks or scores on the blade. An explanation as to how they got there is well within your Bailiwick I imagine.  

My apologies for being somewhat cavalier in my description.  I got carried away.

Kindest Regards

Nigel

 

[AndyBsk]

Conversion to a knife, question is official or done by owner. How long is the blade?

[Nigel Sloan]

Dear Andy,

The blade is 8" (20cm) long.    

Regards

Lieber Andy,

Die Bajonettklinge ist 20 cm oder 8 Zoll bzw lang.

Gruß

[AndyBsk]

Thanks, there are some conversion to french special units of P1913/7 bayonets, but this looks like personal upgrade. Used probably as a combat knife or normal knife when well sharpened.

[Nigel Sloan]

We often overlook the fact that much of the kit issued wound up on Civvy Street. 

My father told me he used his RAF uniform trousers for years after being  de-mobbed from his National Service. Germans, post war, hid their tunics but wore the beautifully tailored trousers.  I acquired a mint pair of such trousers and they cost the earth in 1992.

Bizarrely, returning from an Adler Mannheim ice hockey game in 2022 I saw a German girl on the train wearing a 50's Royal Canadian Army Cadets battledress jacket. My brother wore the same. You just never know.

I figure I'd better clam up now. After all this is a WWI site.

[Chasemuseum]

My mother and her brother in the 1920s used WW1 surplus boots as ski boots. He cut grooves in the sides of the soles to latch into the ski fittings.

 

I wish I had the boots now.

[navydoc16]

On 29/02/2024 at 07:13, AndyBsk said:

Thanks, there are some conversion to french special units of P1913/7 bayonets, but this looks like personal upgrade. Used probably as a combat knife or normal knife when well sharpened.

These are very specific and don’t look quite like that- they are also re-parkerised and refurbished including a “Bowie style” point. I have one floating around somewhere at home I’ll take some pics of. 

bayonet + time + bench grinder = “knife” 

^ the brain of the original owner

kind regards

g