Carl Dycer Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 Ok, so here goes. I'm new to searching war records and I know I have much to learn...but you don'y know until you ask. On my very first search using a popular war records provider, it shows two gentlemen with the same service number. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 Hello Carl, and welcome to the Forum! Before 1921 each regiment or corps had its own number system, and often the Regular and Territorial Force battalions of a regiment also had separate systems. The Territorials were re-numbered in 1917 to eliminate some of the duplication. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tullybrone Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 Hi, Army service "numbers" weren't introduced until 1920 when blocks of numbers were issued to Regiments. The soldier retained the number throughout his service even if he transferred elsewhere. Prior to that "numbers" were issued on a Regimental basis hence you fill find numerous duplications. Soldiers would change numbers if transferred to another regiment. There are even some examples of soldiers in the same regiment having the same number. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Dycer Posted 31 January , 2018 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2018 14 minutes ago, tullybrone said: Hi, Army service "numbers" weren't introduced until 1920 when blocks of numbers were issued to Regiments. The soldier retained the number throughout his service even if he transferred elsewhere. Prior to that "numbers" were issued on a Regimental basis hence you fill find numerous duplications. Soldiers would change numbers if transferred to another regiment. There are even some examples of soldiers in the same regiment having the same number. Steve Thanks Steve. Great piece of info for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Dycer Posted 31 January , 2018 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2018 20 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said: Hello Carl, and welcome to the Forum! Before 1921 each regiment or corps had its own number system, and often the Regular and Territorial Force battalions of a regiment also had separate systems. The Territorials were re-numbered in 1917 to eliminate some of the duplication. Ron Thanks for that Ron. Also, on a different matter.... would it have been possible for a chap to to have been in a Regular battalion of a regiment, like Green Howards in 1916, and then been serving in a Territorial battalion of them at time of his death in May 1918? Basically would a transfer like this have taken place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 As the war went on the army had the option of sending most man wherever they were needed. Who is the man ? Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Dycer Posted 31 January , 2018 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2018 11 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: As the war went on the army had the option of sending most man wherever they were needed. Who is the man ? Craig His name is Private J Harker, Yorkshire Regiment 20625 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 (edited) Hi Carl, Welcome to the Forum. As well as the records on Ancestry/Findmypast/Forces War Records (though unfortunately no service papers) the Red Cross appear to have received a notification that he had died (see the record via here). It seems that the originating report of his death was made by Glennes Area Command/Headquarters (?) - must confess that my German isn't exactly a strong point though. Good luck with your research. Regards Chris Edited 31 January , 2018 by clk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Dycer Posted 31 January , 2018 Author Share Posted 31 January , 2018 (edited) 19 hours ago, clk said: Hi Carl, Welcome to the Forum. As well as the records on Ancestry/Findmypast/Forces War Records (though unfortunately no service papers) the Red Cross appear to have received a notification that he had died (see the record via here). It seems that the originating report of his death was made by Glennes Area Command/Headquarters (?) - must confess that my German isn't exactly a strong point though. Good luck with your research. Regards Chris Chris, that is amazing news. I'm researching for an Uncle of mine, piecing together the story of a relative of his wife. His name is on the Soissons memorial. They considered he was missing or lying in an 'Unknown'. This will be perhaps not what they were expecting. Thank you. Could you do me a favour please. Can you quick look at John James Harker 20625 5th Battalion Green Howards. Born 12th February 1896 and see if you get same results. Cheeky I know. Thing is, I'm finding two chaps, same number, surname, first initial, both Green Howards. But... J.Harker in 2nd Batt. and J.J Harker in 5th Batt. All their sequence of events would fit together to be same chap, but age is wrong by two years on one of them. Is this just clerical error? Are these two same guy? Thanks so much. Edited 1 February , 2018 by Carl Dycer Adding information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loader Posted 31 January , 2018 Share Posted 31 January , 2018 4 hours ago, ss002d6252 said: As the war went on the army had the option of sending most man wherever they were needed. Who is the man ? Craig In my day it was called "Subject to the needs of the service". All bets are off & you go/do what we tell you to do no matter what you were told or promised by the recruiting Sergeant. A pal of mine refused to join the Navy as he did not want to go to sea. He joined the USMC & was trained as aircraft mechanic & sent to USMC squadron based on an aircraft carrier!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 1 February , 2018 Share Posted 1 February , 2018 (edited) Hi Carl, 19 hours ago, Carl Dycer said: I'm finding two chaps, same number, surname, first initial, both Green Howards. But... J.Harker in 2nd Batt. and J.J Harker in 5th Batt. All their sequence of events would fit together to be same chap, but age is wrong by two years on one of them. What are your reference sources? I only found one 20625 Harker (John James). His medal roll record shows service with the 2nd Battalion, then the 10th, 7th, 6th and finally the 5th Battalion. Regards Chris Edit: I guess the record with the age being 2 years out is the FWR 'hospital transcription'? Edited 1 February , 2018 by clk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 1 February , 2018 Share Posted 1 February , 2018 John James Harker listed here Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 1 February , 2018 Share Posted 1 February , 2018 (edited) Hi, Re the German/Red Cross record, I wonder what the basis of the info provided to the compliers by Glennes Command/Headquarters (as I've interpreted it) was. Other units, for example, seem to be hospital/medical units, and sanitation/sanitary (burial??) units. All of the Yorkshire Regiment men appear to have an 'accepted' date of death of 27th May 1918 (and with the exception of 34046 Belton) are listed by the CWGC as 5th Battalion men. Of the 5th Bn men, all are commemorated on the Soissons memorial (along with a lot more men from the battalion with the same date) with the exception of 265531 Hunt who (according to the CWGC) is buried in Vendresse British Cemetery having been recovered/reburied from The trench map reference isn't in a format that I understand - hopefully other forum pals can help. Utter idle and unprovable speculation on my part, but I did wonder if he (Harker) was found/buried by the Germans nearby, and was subsequently reburied in Vendresse as an 'unknown'. Sadly, I guess that we will never know. Regards Chris Edited 1 February , 2018 by clk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Dycer Posted 2 February , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2018 On 2/1/2018 at 18:31, clk said: Hi Carl, What are your reference sources? I only found one 20625 Harker (John James). His medal roll record shows service with the 2nd Battalion, then the 10th, 7th, 6th and finally the 5th Battalion. Regards Chris Edit: I guess the record with the age being 2 years out is the FWR 'hospital transcription'? Hi Chris. Thanks so much for this. I think you are right..it does look like medical/hospital transcription. It was on Forces War Records. You can tell I'm learning can't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Dycer Posted 2 February , 2018 Author Share Posted 2 February , 2018 On 2/1/2018 at 19:50, RaySearching said: John James Harker listed here Ray Cheers Ray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Evans Posted 2 February , 2018 Share Posted 2 February , 2018 (edited) On 01/02/2018 at 21:42, clk said: Hi, Re the German/Red Cross record, I wonder what the basis of the info provided to the compliers by Glennes Command/Headquarters (as I've interpreted it) was. Other units, for example, seem to be hospital/medical units, and sanitation/sanitary (burial??) units. All of the Yorkshire Regiment men appear to have an 'accepted' date of death of 27th May 1918 (and with the exception of 34046 Belton) are listed by the CWGC as 5th Battalion men. Of the 5th Bn men, all are commemorated on the Soissons memorial (along with a lot more men from the battalion with the same date) with the exception of 265531 Hunt who (according to the CWGC) is buried in Vendresse British Cemetery having been recovered/reburied from The trench map reference isn't in a format that I understand - hopefully other forum pals can help. Utter idle and unprovable speculation on my part, but I did wonder if he (Harker) was found/buried by the Germans nearby, and was subsequently reburied in Vendresse as an 'unknown'. Sadly, I guess that we will never know. Regards Chris Soissons Sheet 22 can be found here. Instructions on how to read it can be found here. I make the location where Hunt was found just on the NE outskirts of Craonne. The scale of the map is too great to be very precise. Phil Edit: This version on McMasters is better - it will zoom right at high resolution in on full screen. Edited 2 February , 2018 by Phil Evans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 3 February , 2018 Share Posted 3 February , 2018 (edited) Sometimes when an old soldier rejoined he kept his number despite someone else already having it. A "B" prefix was used. This does seem particular to the Coldstream guards mind. Edited 3 February , 2018 by Coldstreamer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 3 February , 2018 Share Posted 3 February , 2018 I believe you will find that Pte 20625 John James Harker 5th Bn Yorks was the son of Robert and Esther Ann Harker John James can be found on the 1911 census an errand boy aged 15 residing with his parents and siblings at 19 Grange Street Brotton Yorks HERE (ancestry link) The record of soldiers effects show that his father Robert was the legatte of his effects HERE (ancestry link) John James as can be seen in the war diary, was presumed to have been killed in action on the 27th May 1918 during the third phase of the German Spring offensive when the 5th Yorks battalion were overwhelmed during the German onslaught The 5th Yorks battalion almost annihilated with many killed or captured Johns body was never recovered lost to the battlefield Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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