Worcestershire Regiment / Machine Gun Corp.

[Simon A]

I have a relative, Arthur Tiffin who spent time as a POW from the 10/08/1917.

 

From his medal Roll I know the following

 

25766    Worcs R.                                                                              Class Z.A.R.         27/01/1919

14009    M.G.C. Pte.

 

I would like to get the War Diaries relating to his unit. Can anyone advise me how best to identify his specific unit? Would the Machine Gun Corp be linked to the Worcestershire Regiment?

 

His census records indicate that he has lived in Brentwood, Essex for all his life so I am not very clear as to why he should join the Worcestershire Regiment. Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

Would be grateful for any response.

 

Simon

[busterfield]

His prisoner of war record has MGC 36. As he was captured in 1917 I think it would be 36th MGC . The link takes you to the National Archives,where the diary for 36th infantry brigade is also available. If using ancestry or FMP they should help.

http://collaborativecollections.org/WorldWarOne/36th_Machine_Gun_Company,_British_Army

Place of capture is noted as Steinbeke which is probably Steenbeek.

best wishes John

[pjwmacro]

12 hours ago, Simon A said:

I have a relative, Arthur Tiffin who spent time as a POW from the 10/08/1917

 

Simon

Would Arthur be related to Harry Tiffin, one of the First Tank Crewman, who was with C Company Heavy Branch Machine Gun Corps, subsequently Tank Corps, killed in Action on board C59, with C Battalion on 20 Nov 17 - opening day of Battle of Cambrai?

 

Regards, Paul

[PRC]

And if you haven't already seen it, the International Red Cross File for Arthur can be seen* here:-

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4146311/3/2/

 

That will be the 36th Company, Machine Gun Corps, which as John states above would have been attached to the 36th Brigade, itself part of the 12th Eastern Division. There were no battalions of the Worcesters in that Division - I suspect if any were temporarily attached or under command for a specific requirement then it would have been sheer co-incidence.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/12th-eastern-division/

 

If you have his service medal roll that it should normally state which battalion(s) of the Worcesters he served with and if he arrived in a Theatre of war before the start of 1916 there will also be a separate one for his 1914/15 star.

 

I was just hunting around for a bit more information and came up with a bit of a conundrum. My interest in the 12th Division comes from the 7th Norfolks, who were in the 35th Brigade. Checking their War Diary for that date, they were in the support line at Wancourt on that day, carrying supplies and providing working parties for other units of the Brigade. Unless I'm mistaken, Wancourt, (France), is quite someway from Steenbeek, (Belgium) so unless one of those Brigades or the 36th MGC was detached, it seems unlikely that Arthur was either serving with the 36th Company on the day, or that he was captured at Steenbeek.

 

I also happen to have the War Diary for the 7th Royal Sussex who were in 36th Brigade. Their diary entry makes reference to raids by parties of the 35th and 37th Brigades on the night of the 9th August, but their diary entry for the 10th refers to it being a quiet day. Their location is given as the "Brown Line", but their location on the 7th and 8th is given as the Monchy defences. That like Wancourt puts you south east of Arras in France.

 

I then tried looking for other MGC men who died on this day, on the basis that if he was captured other members of the crew might have been killed. Oddly there were only two - a man of the 219th Company, (Divisional troops of the 32nd Division), buried at Coxyde, West Flanders and a man of the 55th Company, (55 Brigade was in the 18th Division), who is remembered on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial. The 18th Division were in action much closer to Steenbeek on this day and in circumstances in which prisoners might well have been taken by the Germans.

 

18th Div

55 Bde

After a 46 minute barrage the brigade attacked with 7th Bn, Queen’s Regt on a 400 yard front. The battalion was to form a defensive flank on the southern edge of Inverness Copse for the division. As they moved into position at 1.30am they were spotted by the Germans and heavy losses ensued. The remnants began the attack at 4.35am . Almost immediately the right hand company was pinned down by MG fire from a blockhouse in Jasper Avenue. The left flank fell back to their old line.

54 Bde

54 Bde also advanced at 4.35am on a front of 750 yards with 11th Royal Fusiliers and 7th Bedfords.

The Fusiliers reached the German Second Line on both sides of FitzClarence House and the eastern edge of Glencorse Wood. By this time they had lost contact with the Bedfords on their left and also with 55 Bde who should have been on their right. At 5pm the Germans attacked from Polygon Wood and Nonneboschen. Bombers were sent down Jargon Trench and an assault from Inverness Copse forced the Fusiliers back to a line 200 yards east of Clapham Junction. Here the line was reinforced with every available man from HQ and two more attacks fought off.

The Bedfords had entered Glencorse Wood unopposed and were consolidating by 5.15am . Due to the mud they were only able to establish isolated defensive positions and by 9.30am the Germans had pushed through the gap between them and the Fusiliers forcing the right flank back. Eventually they withdrew to Jargon Trench.

53 Bde

53 Bde relieved the forward units at midnight .
http://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?11535-The-Battle-of-Passchendaele

 

 

The relevant entry from the 7th Queens War Diary can be seen here -

http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/QW00719170803.pdf

 

Apologies - that's probably one step forward and one step back :-(

 

Peter

 

(* That link will take you straight through to the relevant IRC file. I wasted half an hour last night trying to track it down using Internet Explorer and for once it wasn't just the totally anarchy of the IRC filing system that defeated me. So  this morning I've used Google Chrome and got there in under 90 seconds - grrr.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 29 January , 2018 by PRC
Typo and formatting

[kenf48]

He enlisted in the Worcestershire Regiment between the 15th November 1915 (25760) and the 19th November (25769).

 

He was posted and renumbered to the MGC on or around 21 January 1916.  He did not go on active service overseas with the Worcestershire Regiment and his medal entitlement shows he did not qualify for the 14-15 Star.

 

It is unusual he should be posted to the Worcestershire Regiment however as he was apparently a direct enlistment from the Derby Scheme there was still an element of choice so for whatever reason he may have elected to join that Regiment, or he was put there by the Army.  In the absence of a service record we just don't know.

 

It is not unusual for men t be posted to Regiments that were not local and there are many reasons for this.

Some are outlined on this page of the LLT http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/faq-concerning-researching-soldiers/faq-can-i-assume-my-soldier-served-with-a-local-regiment/

 

Ken

 

 

 

[kenf48]

Not convinced it was 36 Brigade, especially with Peter's notes, so had a look at the war diary for the 86th Brigade MGC Company.

 

He is listed as 'missing' during a relief along with seven other comrades, looks like a whole section may have stumbled into enemy hands during the relief.

 

On Ancestry the relevant page is here

or the diary can be downloaded from TNA if you don't subscribe to Ancestry http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7353574

 

Ken

 

[PRC]

Of the two reports from the German Authorities in the International Red Cross file for Arthur, only one has a specific unit. I've just looked again, increased the resolution, and definitely 86.:)

 

Cheers,

Peter

[kenf48]

Rather brilliantly the 86th Company MGC diary even gives the date Pte Tiffin arrived from the 'Machine Gun Base Etapes' (sic) on the 9th May 1916.

 

They would have been posted from the MGC base at Camiers which is just down the road from Etaples but let's not split hairs, as someone else remarked today don't you just love it when the diaries mention Ors by name.

 

Ken

[Simon A]

I'm amazed at how much information you have gleaned. Thank you all very much. This gives me a lot of stuff to follow up on.

 

Paul - That's interesting  what you say about Harry Tiffin. I'm not aware that he is related but I will certainly be looking into it.

 

Thanks again

 

Simon

[Simon A]

He enlisted in the Worcestershire Regiment between the 15th November 1915 (25760) and the 19th November (25769).

 

Ken - Can you explain to me where you got the above enlistment dates?

 

Thanks

 

Simon 

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Simon A said:

He enlisted in the Worcestershire Regiment between the 15th November 1915 (25760) and the 19th November (25769).

 

Ken - Can you explain to me where you got the above enlistment dates?

 

Thanks

 

Simon 

Near number sampling of surviving service records shows 25760 Arnold enlisted Monday 15/11/1915 (13th Bn) and 25769 Dunshee Friday 19/11/1915 (14th Bn), therefore there is a high degree of probability 25766 was allocated between those dates, or  ‘on or around’ those dates.

 

These men were direct entries under the Derby Scheme, Dunshee for example attested in Smethwick on 12/11/1915 and was posted to the Worcestershire Regiment.  The 13th and 14th were home service Reserve Battalions.  Officers from the MGC visited the Reserve Battalions to identify suitable recruits for the MGC.  They were then posted to Clipstone Camp for further training.  So looking at Pte Tiffin enlisted mid November 1915; 12 weeks basic training posted MGC late January;  6 weeks or so training at MG School Grantham; to France and the MG Depot at Camiers March 1916 and posted to 86 Company as above.

 

Ken

[pjwmacro]

On 29/01/2018 at 10:34, pjwmacro said:

 

Simon

Would Arthur be related to Harry Tiffin, one of the First Tank Crewman, who was with C Company Heavy Branch Machine Gun Corps, subsequently Tank Corps, killed in Action on board C59, with C Battalion on 20 Nov 17 - opening day of Battle of Cambrai?

 

Regards, Paul

 

12 hours ago, Simon A said:

Paul - That's interesting  what you say about Harry Tiffin. I'm not aware that he is related but I will certainly be looking into it.

 

Thanks again

 

Simon

 

@delta. Do you know if Harry Tiffin had a brother?  Arthur Tiffin: 25766    Worcs R.   14009 M.G.C. Pte. Class Z.A.R.         27/01/1919

 

@Simon A Harry Tiffin's details are: TIFFIN, Private, Henry James. 200565, C Bn., Tank Corps formerly 2678, Machine Gun Corps. Killed in action, 20th November, 1917. Age 25. Son of John and Annas E. Tiffin of Ravenbank, Kirkswald, Cumberland. Born Kirkswald, Cumberland. Enlisted Coventry. Memorial Ref. Panel 13. Cambrai Memorial, Louveral, France.  Do you know who Artur's parents were?  I`m not at home - so I cannot run a search.

 

Regards, Paul

[delta]

Paul

Harry did have a brother named Arthur but, according to his family, he served with the Artillery.  

[Simon A]

Thank you Ken - very interesting.

 

Paul- Arthur's parents were Charles and Isabella (nee Cant) Tiffin all from Essex so it doesn't look like they were closely related.

 

Wondered if he was a cousin of Arthur's but Charles does not appear to have a brother called John.

 

Regards

 

Simon

 

 

[pjwmacro]

13 hours ago, Simon A said:

Paul- Arthur's parents were Charles and Isabella (nee Cant) Tiffin all from Essex so it doesn't look like they were closely related.

 

Wondered if he was a cousin of Arthur's but Charles does not appear to have a brother called John.

 

Regards

 

Simon

 

Maybe a more distant cousin.  Plainly not the brother!  I don't think Tiffin is a particularly common name (?) - so there is probably some link without going back too far?

 

Paul