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Remembered Today:

5th Battalion, Manchester Regiment - 2nd Lieutenant Edmund Rogers Pape, 552474, Spring Offensive


Clear Bell

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Hi

Have  been researching this soldier who before being commissioned to 5th battalion of the Manchester Regiment might have been a sergeant in the 16th (County of London) Battalion (Queen's Westminster Rifles) with the number 5507. Not surprised that I can't trace anything about him in the QWR war diary because of his rank,  but there's no reference to him in th WD for the Manchesters either (his number was 552474).

 

That he served with them is clear from Soldiers' Effects, his MIC, and London University's "Roll of Honour" which gives his  dod as 27 March 1918. But is it usual for there to be no reference to a new officer joining of a battalion or going missing before being deemed to have been killed? Is the Manchester's WD just another instance of the confusion and difficulties of accurately recording what happened during the first week of the 1918 Spring Offensive? The War Office weekly casualty lists mention him as missing 23 April 1918, but nothing appears in that month's record in WD

 

Might I be looking in the wrong WD?

 

Any help appreciated as always.

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He joined the 2/5th Bn in January 1918. His name appears on a list of personnel rejoining the battalion. His name has been crossed off the list and annotated that he is a new arrival.

 

Charlie

Pape.jpg

Edited by charlie2
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16 hours ago, charlie2 said:

He joined the 2/5th Bn in January 1918. His name appears on a list of personnel rejoining the battalion. His name has been crossed off the list and annotated that he is a new arrival.

 

Charlie

Pape.jpg

 Oh right. Thanks for this. I take it this page is from the WD for 2/5ths?

 

 

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Looks like this is the one and only mention of him in the 2/5th's WD.  Not found anything more - although the WD is a bit out of chronological order.

It's odd that the WD does not mention monthly numbers of casualties, missing and killed for this battalion.

 

But, it's clear there were large losses in March as there's a note covering the 26th that says "After these operations the 199th INF BDE were made into a composite battalion." so I suppose worth a look at any records for this new set up.

 

The WD's I've been using for the individuals I am researching killed during the Spring Offensive beg more questions than they answer.

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17 minutes ago, Clear Bell said:

 

It's odd that the WD does not mention monthly numbers of casualties, missing and killed for this battalion.

 

 

??? It‘s probably the best WD I have seen for listing casualties up to March 1918, it even lists ORs by number, rank and name and what sort of casualty they were.

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2 hours ago, charlie2 said:

 

??? It‘s probably the best WD I have seen for listing casualties up to March 1918, it even lists ORs by number, rank and name and what sort of casualty they were.

 

Apologies, I should have made clear my interest at the moment is for the first three months of 1918. Would you be able to give me a page reference or a link so I could track down the March appendices?  Agree, the appendices for April onwards are very detailed - but the soldier I am researching does not appear in these - perhaps because he was still considered as missing?

Mind you, he is listed  as Missing in the WD for 199th Brigade at the end of the section on 21 -31 March. I am not sure at what point hid dod was declared to be 27 March,

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The medal roll for #552474 / #5509 Pape confirms he was commissioned 29 Oct 1917.

 

Pape's war gratuity for service in the ranks was £12 10s. If he was a (plain) sergeant then this would give 21 months service before the commission date. Thus would give an enlistment in the month from 30 Jan 1916.



#5503 of 16th London's was allocated 2 Feb 1916 for comparison

Craig

Edited by ss002d6252
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There are no Appendicies for March 1918, as I previously posted the WD is good up to March, thereafter it confines itself to mainly the movements of Officers.

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55 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

The medal roll for #552474 / #5509 Pape confirms he was commissioned 29 Oct 1917.

 

Pape's war gratuity for service in the ranks was £12 10s. If he was a (plain) sergeant then this would give 21 months service before the commission date. Thus would give an enlistment in the month from 30 Jan 1915.



#5503 of 16th London's was allocated 2 Feb 1915 for comparison

Craig

I am pretty sure he was a student until January 1916 so I am wondering if this might indicate he enlisted under the Lord Derby Scheme.

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48 minutes ago, charlie2 said:

There are no Appendicies for March 1918, as I previously posted the WD is good up to March, thereafter it confines itself to mainly the movements of Officers.

Oh right. Penny dropped.

Thanks!

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10 minutes ago, Clear Bell said:

I am pretty sure he was a student until January 1916 so I am wondering if this might indicate he enlisted under the Lord Derby Scheme.


War gratuity only starts to accrue once actual service began but it's my typo - it should say 1916, not 1915.


Craig

 

Edited by ss002d6252
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1 minute ago, ss002d6252 said:


War gratuity only starts to accrue once actual service began but it's my type - it should say 1916, not 1915.


Craig

 

Excellent, so that completely tallies with when he left college - from one institution to another seamlessly.

Thanks.

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