A conundram solved I think

[Patrick H]

I have long puzzled over this one and have posted him on here before to which I received some replies, thank you.

 

Pte William James Amner enlisted into the Royal Fusiliers on the 28th September 1915 and was discharged on the 2nd March 1916 for being underage. The Census shows that in 1911 he was 11 so on enlistment he would have been 15 or 16. He then enlisted into Essex Regt No 19381 on the 27th May 1915 before being discharged sick on the 1st June 1916. He died of his sickness on the same day. THE DATES DO NOT ADD UP.

 

On closer investigation it seems on attestation his date of birth is given as 189 and no year. Was he trying to make himself older and would the attesting officer have connived. Then on looking at the date of enlistment it is clear that someone has changed the year from 1914 to 1915. Was this a cover up by the Attesting Officer when it became clear young William was clearly under age. Would have an investigation have been carried out? 

 

So it seems he enlisted on the 28/9/1914, was discovered and discharged on 2/3/1915.  But the canny lad enlisted again 2 months later. 

 

Also he seems to have died on the same date as discharge. Where was he on the 1st June as he is not buried at home or in the Parish. . 

 

Could he have been discharged in a hospital ? Did this happen ?  Where was he buried ?  I do have that his death was registered in Ongar 1st Qtr (potentially died 1916?) but this gives his date of birth 1871, which coincidentally is his father's year of birth. His father also William James Amner later joined the London Regt and died 20.10.1918. Could they have put his father's dob on the sons certificate ? 

 

Now I'm getting confused again HELP 

 

Patrick

[ss002d6252]

How much was the war gratuity ? And what type ?

Craig

[corisande]

Soldiers Effects gives this

 

It says

1. He died after discharge

2. He was discharged 1 Jun 1916

3. It seems to indicate that all his effects were for his widow Rosena F

 

 

[corisande]

And this is for the man you believe is his father

 

[corisande]

The first W J Amner married Rosina Florence Vince in 1899 so was more than 11 in 1914 :-)

 

His service pepers exist - click for FmP service papers

 

Which give among other things him being born 1876 and discharged 1 Jun 1916 and died 12 Jan 1917

Edited 25 January , 2018 by corisande

[helpjpl]

6 minutes ago, corisande said:

Soldiers 

 

 

19381 Pte. Wm James Amner, Essex Regt., was issued Silver War Badge No. 58339 on 28 October 1916 - Sickness. Date of enlistment 27.5.15. Date of discharge 1.6.16.

 

Marriage of a William J Amner to Rosina Florence Vince registered Apr-May-Jun 1899 in Ongar, Essex.

 

JP

[Patrick H]

Still confusing.

 

Rosina was the wife of William James Amner and mother of William junior. 

Junior died 1916 so his war gratuity was paid to his mother

Several times Ancestry seems to have confused the two but I have now found William Snr Attestation dated 29.5.15 aged 39 and drafted into The Essex Regt. I have his MIC and his service no is 19381. William Jnr was 58339 Essex Regt discharged sick 1.6.16 

 

Am I going potty ??

 

Patrick

 

 

[Patrick H]

18 minutes ago, corisande said:

And this is for the man you believe is his father

 

That's correct but it states the recipient was "sole legatee Harriett" who the heck is she since Rosina, I believe was still alive, and if he had a daughter (not on the 1911 Census) she would be a minor 

Patrick

[corisande]

Wm senior's service record clearly says his no as 19381 and that he was discharged 1 Jun 1916

 

You need to read that service record

 

En passant he appears to have been born Oct/Dec 1871, so lied about his age to make him self a few years younger

[corisande]

And CWGC gives for the James Amner who died in 1918

 

Service Number 701805

Died 20/10/1918

Aged 33

23rd Bn.
London Regiment

Son of Mrs. Amner, of 5, Martell Road, West Dulwich, London.

[Patrick H]

5 minutes ago, corisande said:

And CWGC gives for the James Amner who died in 1918

 

Service Number 701805

Died 20/10/1918

Aged 33

23rd Bn.
London Regiment

Son of Mrs. Amner, of 5, Martell Road, West Dulwich, London.

But if it was Jnr who died in 1918 he would be 19 (census puts him at 11) 

[helpjpl]

29 minutes ago, Patrick H said:

Still confusing.

 

Rosina was the wife of William James Amner and mother of William junior. 

Junior died 1916 so his war gratuity was paid to his mother

Several times Ancestry seems to have confused the two but I have now found William Snr Attestation dated 29.5.15 aged 39 and drafted into The Essex Regt. I have his MIC and his service no is 19381. William Jnr was 58339 Essex Regt discharged sick 1.6.16 

 

58339 is the number of the Silver War Badge issued to 19381 Pte. Wm James Amner, Essex Regt., on 28 October 1916.  Date of enlistment 27.5.15. Date of discharge 1.6.16 - as per my first reply:

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/2456/wo329_636897_0830-00125?pid=442846&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DVFg32%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26db%3DSilverWarBadgeMedals%26gss%3Dangs-d%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26msT%3D1%26MS_AdvCB%3D1%26gsln%3DAmner%26gsln_x%3D1%26MSAV%3D2%26uidh%3Dicz%26pcat%3DMIL_AWARDS%26fh%3D7%26h%3D442846%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D8&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=VFg32&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

JP

Edited 25 January , 2018 by helpjpl
To add link

[ss002d6252]

48 minutes ago, corisande said:

Soldiers Effects gives this

 

It says

1. He died after discharge

2. He was discharged 1 Jun 1916

3. It seems to indicate that all his effects were for his widow Rosena F

 

 

Did William Jnr ever get to France ?

This is the first underage case I've seen on a war gratuity.

 

Craig

Edited 25 January , 2018 by ss002d6252

[corisande]

The James Amner who died in 1918 has service papers on Ancestry - click for service papers

 

His address ties in with the CWGC data. And he was, without doubt 33

 

Basically he is nothing to do with the other man you have, and is not directly related.

 

The older W J Amner is the man discharged in Jun 1916 and died Jan 1917. His son , for whom service papers also exist was 11 in 1911, joined up undergae and was discharged. There is no evidence that he re-enlisted. And he is certainly not the man discharged 1 Jun 1916, who was his father

[Mark1959]

My conclusion as well. James Archibald Amner born 18/8/1885. Mother Harriet. Nothing to do with WJ Amner.

[corisande]

The James Amner who died 1918, has in his service record

 

This gives his mother "Harriet" as on Soldiers Effects and the Address as on CWGC

 

 

 

 

[Mark1959]

There is a Birth reg from Ongar in 1899 for a Wm Charles Amner. A man with the name William C Amner Died London 1924 aged about 25.  May be the son but tbc.

edit - Wm Snr. There is a Wm James birth reg St Olave, London 1871. Fits in with age on 1911 census. StOlave is where the death is registered for the man died 1924.

Edited 26 January , 2018 by Mark1959

[Patrick H]

So I have the son William James Amner who enlisted 28/09/15 underage, into the Royal Fusiliers. Subsequently discharged and no evidence he rejoined. By 1918 he would still have been perhaps underage dependent on month of birth.

Father William James Amner enlisted into the Essex Pte 19381 who was discharged sick at Warley Essex on the 1st June 1916, and died the same day.

 

The 1918 Amner a complete red herring (where did that expression come from ?)

 

Gentlemen all, many thanks for your time and effort on my behalf. I clearly got stuck in the mud on this.

 

I wonder what happened to young William ?

 

Patrick

 

[Patrick H]

Hang on a minute !!

 

If Amner Jnr didn't serve then why is he on the Lambourne memorial. His Dad is on the Chigwell Row memorial. Are they the same man and Jnr didn't die. The date of death on the Lambourne memorial is 1916 which might be Snr. 

I'll need to check Ancestry again

[Mark1959]

What evidence do you have on the son and his enlistment underage and that he was related to the older man? I can find no evidence of such a person. I have seen the enlistment but that is just under William. Seems there is an assumption that it the memorial does not refer to senior.

 

Edited 26 January , 2018 by Mark1959

[Patrick H]

The 1911 Census gives William James and Rose Amner living Joshua Cottages Chigwell Row with their two sons including William James aged 11.

I have the enlistment paper of William James Amner 28 09 15 

 

Now young Amner is living in Lambourne hence, I thought the reason he was on the lambourne memorial. 

[Patrick H]

Thought I would put up the 2 memorials 

 

[Patrick H]

and Lambourne 

[Mark1959]

Read the census again the 2 sons are recorded as William and George. No second names.

Edited 26 January , 2018 by Mark1959

[Patrick H]

6 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

Read the census again the 2 sons are recorded as William and George. No second names.

 

Very true but I have Williams (younger) Attestation Paper dated 28.09.15 which ancestry have listed under Thomas Cain ( William Amner) 16898 R.Fusiliers