36th Battalion Machine Gun Corps

[Ulsterdiv]

If the 36th Battalion Machine Gun Corps didn’t officially join the 36th (Ulster) Division until 1st March 1918 why did the following happen?

 

All three 107th, 108th & 109th Machine Gun Company War Dairies stop on the 31st Jan 1918

 

The New 36th Battalion Machine Gun Corps B Company Dairy entire and ink is exactly the same as the 108th Machine Gun Company in Jan but now under the Company new title. 

 

B Company 36th Battalion Machine Gun Corps are holding the line from the 1st February 1918 it looks like the Right Sub sector near Essigny

 

C Company on the 16th went into the 107th Brigade line and are officially in the Left sub sector

 

I believe the 107th Machine Gun Company continued to exist under maybe A Company until the full transformation of the 36th Battalion Machine Gun Corps as the 266th traveled from Grantham on 12/1/1918

If this is correct the 36th Battalion Machine Gun Corps was Part of the Division from 1st Feb 1918

No official documentation in any War Dairy that I have came across

 

Any thoughts or comments

 

thanks in advance 

[kenf48]

The key date, as shown in the 36th Bn. war diary for the formation of the 36th Bn. MGC is the 1st March 1918, as shown in the extract below.

 

On this date all existing MGC Companies in the field on the Western Front were reorganised and formed into Battalions and designated by the number for the Division to which they were attached.   (The diary also notes the Division was also undergoing a reorganisation as can be seen on the LLT http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/36th-ulster-division/ The British Army on the Western Front was forced to reduce the number of Battalions for various practical and strategic reasons.)

 

The general convention, although not immediately clear for the 36th Bn (you could probably track the officers appointed as Company Commanders in the Company war diaries) was that the Companies, previously numbered for the Brigade to which they were attached were redesignated  in numerical order thus, 107 = A; 108 = B; 109 =C and  266 = D.

All the Companies were in the 36th (Ulster) Division until the army wide reorganisation of the MGC on the 1st March.  Looking at other MGC Battalion diaries for the 1st March 1918 which usually note the formation of the Battalion and appointment of the CO some have more detail than the 36th Bn diary, and some less.

 

However the key point is the 36th Battalion did not 'join' the Division on the 1st March it's constituent Companies were already there. The change in name reflected the evolution of machine gun tactics.

 

I have seen Brigade war diaries which still refer to 'their' MG Company as late as June.  If you look at the Brigade diaries they will probably reflect 'their' machine gun Company eve after the reorganisation.  Similarly when, as often happened men were attached they would often be drawn from the original Brigade.

 

It was perhaps unfortunate the Germans decided to attack on March 21st and in the general confusion the reorganisation has led to some anomalies, not least on the CWGC Roll of Honour.

Eventually, as the change was given time to bed in and new recruits were posted into the Battalion from the UK the previous brigade affiliation melted away.

 

Ken

 

Edited 24 January , 2018 by kenf48

[Ulsterdiv]

Brilliant Ken, would it would be safe to say even though the official date of reorganisation was 1st March 1918, it was in place from 1st February officially or unofficially under 36th Battalion Machine Gun Corps? Due to the Brigade Company War Dairies stopping from 31st Jan

[kenf48]

2 hours ago, Ulsterdiv said:

Brilliant Ken, would it would be safe to say even though the official date of reorganisation was 1st March 1918, it was in place from 1st February officially or unofficially under 36th Battalion Machine Gun Corps? Due to the Brigade Company War Dairies stopping from 31st Jan

 

No, I don’t think it would  be safe to say that on the basis of a ‘misfiled’ group of diaries.

 

I’ve had a look at the higher level diaries, 107 Brigade takes us no further.  The 108 Brigade Diary is interesting as they do a monthly return and whilst they deploy the MG Company the establishment was removed from the Brigade  at the end of the month.  The diary also shows the 108 Company marched to Happencourt on January 16, 1918, which is where the 36 Battalion was formed on March 1st. 

The 109 Brigade Diary shows the 109 MGC Company was deployed from Happencourt on 16/17 February to relieve 107 Company in the line.  266 Company was also billeted there.  So you have a picture of the MG Companies of the 36th Division concentrating there prior to the formation of the Battalion; at that location.

 

On Ancestry each Company war diary for February, confirming  the designation described in my previous post, are bundled with the 36th Battalion Diary.  The diaries were not necessarily written contemporaneously but submitted the following month to the command unit.  By March that was the 36th Battalion.  At a later date when collated and submitted to TNA seems they were bundled together.  

 

If you have access to Ancestry they begin here

266 Coy from January, they were already Divisional Troops so no mystery there.

108 Coy has a notation ‘B Company’ at the beginning of February but sign off the diary 108 Company

109 Company is struck through on the front page and shows C Company but again signed off as 109 Company 

The 107 Diary does appear lost but there is a two page op order dated 15 February and signed off 107 Company 

 

Ken 

 

 

[Ulsterdiv]

Would you suggest that the Brigade M.G Companies Dairy entries where put into the 36th Battalion instead of the Brigade and later amended to the respective Company? 

The writing looks the same in the 108th MGC Dairy to the writing that states B Company in the 36th Battalion MGC, would that suggest even the adjutant was confused? Or they thought it had been formed before the date?

sorry for the questions, getting different opinions, I have all the daries Ken but looking feedback which I really appreciate 

[Ron Clifton]

The index to class WO95 (the War Diaries) has the diary of 36 Bn MGC beginning in January 1918.

 

Ron

[Retlaw]

My uncle Artificer 10761 was posted to the 36th Batt, M.G.C;  from Grantham in 1915.

Once on a visit to kew some 30 years ago, I ordered up the records, and was handed a cardboard box crammed full of page upon page of machine gun war diaries, nothing was in any order, or of any help.

I am presuming that some one has since spent some time sorting that jumble out. I know approximately where he was on July 1st 1916, he told his younger brother that when the mines exploded on July 1st, he was carrying a Vickers on his shoulder to his repair wagon, and the blast knocked him off his feet, and he was 10 miles away.  I have now down loaded the 36th war diaries, and nothing makes any real sense as to when they were formed, even the date of his death doesn't tie up in those so called 36th diaries. 

So if the 36th was only formed in early 1918, what the eck was 10761 serving in or with before then.

All the family correspondence and his medals were stolen from his elder sister house some 60 years ago, the only things I have left are his death penny, and his small book, his mother held on to those

 

 

Edited 25 January , 2018 by Retlaw

[Ulsterdiv]

Ron I think that is where the confusion starts as the 266th make there way from Grantham, Ken had a good point of the “mis- filing” but I guess there was a bit of confusion as some of the Brigade and even Divisional dairies admit the re-organisation was causing problems with 

[Ulsterdiv]

Retlaw if he was with the 36th (Ulster)!Division he would be serving with either the 107th, 108th or 108tg Machine Gun Companies prior to the formation of the 36th Battalion Machine Gun Company, hope this helps 

[kenf48]

21 hours ago, Ulsterdiv said:

Would you suggest that the Brigade M.G Companies Dairy entries where put into the 36th Battalion instead of the Brigade and later amended to the respective Company? 

The writing looks the same in the 108th MGC Dairy to the writing that states B Company in the 36th Battalion MGC, would that suggest even the adjutant was confused? Or they thought it had been formed before the date?

sorry for the questions, getting different opinions, I have all the daries Ken but looking feedback which I really appreciate 

 

I'm not a handwriting expert but I don't understand the problem we are trying to resolve.  The 36th Battalion Machine Gun Company was, as noted in the diary was formed on the 1st March 1918.  The officers and men of the existing Companies within the Division formed the nucleus of the Battalion.

 

Up until that date the Machine Gun Corps was organised in Companies with one Company being allocated to each Brigade.  In addition, from 1917 additional Companies were formed at Grantham and as they were supernumerary to the number of Brigades became Divisional Troops, i.e. in 36th Division 266 Company.  

 

Up until the 1st March each Company was deployed by the Brigade who liaised with the Divisional Machine Gun Officer, as a consequence in a  major offensive, and there certainly wasn't one in February 1918, the Brigade might be in Divisional Reserve but their machine gunners deployed elsewhere.  Apart from the change in tactics e.g.to provide barrage fire it made sense to put them all under Divisional control and was something those who had promoted a separate MGC had been anxious to achieve since its formation in 1915.

 

How the war diaries were filed or dated post war has little relevance to their tactical deployment in early 1918.  As mentioned in the previous post it was unfortunate that the changes to the structure of the Corps were not given an opportunity to bed in, and in fact led to some recriminations from the infantry following the German Offensive.  I would imagine administrative details were far from their minds.

 

As you have noted above either the soldier in Retlaw's post was either in 36 Company, attached to 36 Brigade, 12th (Eastern) Division or one of the constituent Companies that later formed the 36th Battalion on the 1st March 1918.

 

 

Ken

 

 

 

Edited 25 January , 2018 by kenf48