Catterpillar - March 1918 - Les Hézettes - Guivry (Aisne - France)

[Gada de Guivry]

Bonjour à tous,

Je vais poster quelques photos de matériel en anglais et je voudrais avoir le maximum d'informations sur ceux-ci.

J'ai trouvé ces images à vendre sur internet il ya quelques années et je n'ai pas eu le temps de l'acheter.

Je pense que nous sommes en mars 1918 au hameau des Hezettes (Village de Guivry).

Merci à tous pour l'aide que vous pouvez me donner.

Gada

 

Photo N ° 1

 

Photo N ° 2

 

Photo N ° 3

Edited 24 January , 2018 by Gada de Guivry

[Chasemuseum]

#1 and #3 are the Holt tractor, manufactured in USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holt_Manufacturing_Company 

#1 is being used to tow a piece of heavy artillery. The photo does not appear clear enough to indentify the type. My guess is a 60pounder field gun on the Mk II or MkIII carriage.

#2 is a French army tank “Schneider CA1” tank

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneider_CA1

 

Cheers

Ross

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Photos No1 & 3 are of a Holt Caterpillar tractor, possibly towing a 9.2" Howitzer and crew, on 3 trailers.(EDIT: Or possibly not. - See post #2 above).

This is what my grandfather did from 1917-1918.

On March 21st 1918, the battery (118 Siege Battery) his company (886 Coy ASC) were attending were in Villeveque and in a quarry in Holnon Wood near Attilly, some 15 miles North of Guivry.

886 Coy ASC was XVIII Corps Siege Park and their headquarters at Sancourt was evacuated on 22/3/1918 to Roye.

 

Edited 24 January , 2018 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr

[Chasemuseum]

Hi DByS,

I doubt that its a 9.2in how. They normally broke into 3 loads and if pulled by  tractor, all 3 loads were connected together as a road train. The 9.2 carriages usually used four No108 wheels (a very heavy, wood spoke wheel, I do not know anything else that used these the 60 pr on Mk I carriage used the No12 wheel. 18pr & 4.5how used No45. GS wagons were mostly No200A).

 

The big steel tractor wheels were used by the bigger howitzers, the 60pr on Mk II & III carriages and the 6-inch gun. I just cannot see the photo clearly enough to pick what it is. I could not tell if the limber has steel or wood wheels. It does not look big enough to be the 6-inch gun.

 

attached are some scans from the 9.2in how manual showing the loads. Sorry the scans are so ordinary. There is a great photo in the manual of all the wagons together as a road train but its too big for my scanner

Cheers

Ross

 

 

[MikB]

Wonder if it's an 8" howitzer towed in pic 1?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_8-inch_howitzer_Mk_VI_–_VIII#/media/File:8inchMkVIHowitzerAndPlatform.jpg

[Chasemuseum]

Very possible if the limber wheels are steel wheels

[Gada de Guivry]

Le 24/01/2018 à 11:58, Gada de Guivry a dit :

Bonjour à tous,

Je vais poster quelques photos de matériel en anglais et je voudrais avoir le maximum d'informations sur ceux-ci.

J'ai trouvé ces images à vendre sur internet il y a quelques années et je n'ai pas eu le temps de l'acheter.

Je pense que nous sommes en mars 1918 au hameau des Hezettes (Village de Guivry).

Merci à tous pour l'aide que vous pouvez me donner.

Gada

 

Photo N°1

 

Photo N°2

 

Photo N°3

Voici de nouvelles photos du secteur de Guivry.

Pouvez-vous identifier du matériel britannique ?

 

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

Prynhawn da Gada,

Doc 1 - Part of a 9.2" Howitzer

Doc 2 - Holt 120 Tractor, 6 cylinders.

[Spaceman]

Doc 1 shows a British Ordnance BL 9.2-Inch howitzer being transported. Normally, this was done in 3 loads with the gun carriage and cradle shown on the nearest 4-wheel carriage with the bed on which the howitzer was mounted and its earth box being transported on the further 4-wheel carriage. The third carriage mounting the gun barrel is not shown. A pile of 9.2-inch shells appears to be strewn about. 

[Spaceman]

I believe Doc 4 is showing a number of French Canon de 155 C Mle 1915 Schneider howitzers.

[Gada de Guivry]

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Prynhawn de Gada,

Doc 1 - Partie d'un obusier de 9,2"

Doc 2 - Tracteur Holt 120, 6 cylindres.

Merci !

2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Prynhawn de Gada,

Doc 1 - Partie d'un obusier de 9,2"

Doc 2 - Tracteur Holt 120, 6 cylindres.

Les docs 1 et 2 ont été photographiés au hameau de Guivry "Les Hézettes".

[Gada de Guivry]

2 hours ago, Spaceman said:

Le Doc 1 montre un obusier britannique Ordnance BL 9.2-Inch transporté. Normalement, cela se faisait en 3 charges avec le chariot de canon et le berceau montrés sur le chariot à 4 roues le plus proche avec le lit sur lequel l'obusier était monté et sa boîte de terre étant transportée sur l'autre chariot à 4 roues. Le troisième chariot supportant le canon du pistolet n'est pas représenté. Un tas d'obus de 9,2 pouces semble éparpillé. 

Merci beaucoup. Maintenant, nous savons où et quoi ! Photo prise à "Les Hézettes", commune de Guivry.

[Gada de Guivry]

On 24/01/2018 at 11:58, Gada de Guivry said:

Bonjour à tous,

Je vais poster quelques photos de matériel en anglais et je voudrais avoir le maximum d'informations sur ceux-ci.

J'ai trouvé ces images à vendre sur internet il y a quelques années et je n'ai pas eu le temps de l'acheter.

Je pense que nous sommes en mars 1918 au hameau des Hezettes (Village de Guivry).

Merci à tous pour l'aide que vous pouvez me donner.

Gada

 

Photo N°1

 

Photo N°2

 

Photo N°3

The latest information in our possession allows us to confirm that photos 1 and 3 were taken on March 23, 1918 at Hézettes (a place called Guivry).

[Spaceman]

It looks at though Docs 3 & 4 were taken along the same stretch of road - one of the trees appears to be the same in both photos. Since the guns are Canon de 155 C Mle 1915 (or 1917) Schneider howitzers, this would suggest the hardware in both Docs 3 & 4 are French.

[Spaceman]

It might be worth noting that, although Doc 1 shows a British designed 9.2-inch howitzer and Doc 4 shows French 155 mm1915/17 Schneider howitzers, both guns were also used by the American Expeditionary Force (AEF).  A more detailed look at each photo might show which nation each gun belonged to?

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

5 hours ago, Gada de Guivry said:

The latest information in our possession allows us to confirm that photos 1 and 3 were taken on March 23, 1918 at Hézettes (a place called Guivry).

Thank you for posting the images.

On that day, my grandfather was with 886 MT Coy., ASC, attached to 118 Siege Battery tactically withdawing to Carrepuis, Roye, having been in Holnon Wood near St. Quentin on the morning of the 21st.
The diary states that on that day they began with:

"Total 44 caterpillar tractors. 11 destroyed on this date.  "

So that scene of destroyed Holt tractors was repeated several times over all across that sector of the front during that catastrophic week.

[Spaceman]

Looking at DOC 3, the rear lorry appears to be a US Four Wheel Drive (FWD) Model B with the one in front of it probably being the same. 

I am certain Doc 3 and Doc 4 are of the same stretch of road. In Doc 4, apart from the rear destroyed lorry, it looks as though there are at least 2 intact lorries further ahead of it and the guns. It is possible that Doc 3 shows the remains of the same convoy after it had been further attacked some time later. 

Assuming Doc 3 & 4, are connected in the way suggested probably means that this was an AEF convoy with FWD Model B's being used to tow the Canon de 155 C Mle 1915/17 Schneider howitzers.

[Great War Truck]

1 hour ago, Spaceman said:

Looking at DOC 3, the rear lorry appears to be a US Four Wheel Drive (FWD) Model B with the one in front of it probably being the same. 

I am certain Doc 3 and Doc 4 are of the same stretch of road. In Doc 4, apart from the rear destroyed lorry, it looks as though there are at least 2 intact lorries further ahead of it and the guns. It is possible that Doc 3 shows the remains of the same convoy after it had been further attacked some time later. 

Assuming Doc 3 & 4, are connected in the way suggested probably means that this was an AEF convoy with FWD Model B's being used to tow the Canon de 155 C Mle 1915/17 Schneider howitzers.

I agree, definitely FWD Model B. However these were British army ones not US. The second FWD has a British style tow hook and the cab has a vertical steel roof support while the US ones had a folding "pram iron" type. 

[Spaceman]

I think the jury is still out on exactly what is in Docs 3 & 4. I am pretty sure I can see the remains of a Canon de 155 C Mle 1915/17 Schneider in front of the 2 destroyed FWD Model B's in Doc 3. It's always possible that the British were involved with this convoy, perhaps even lending a hand to move the guns but these were only used by the French and the US. 

I've been trying to identify the destroyed lorry in Doc 4 but have not managed it yet?

[Great War Truck]

The lorry in doc 4 is (was) a Maudslay. 

[Spaceman]

I think you are right!

To recap:

Doc 4 shows 1 x destroyed Maudslay lorry with possibly 3 x FWD Model B lorries further down the road with at least 2 x French 155 mm howitzers in between.

Doc 3 shows possibly 3 x destroyed FWD Model B lorries at the far end of the same road and what I believe are 2 x  French 155 mm howitzers just beyond and near to the buildings.

What I find particularly odd about Doc 3 is that all 3 x lorries have been flipped upside down - if this has happened due to shell fire, I would have expected them to have been blown off the road. Also, there is no obvious sign of any shell craters!

[Great War Truck]

Yes, it is curious. The FWD's dont look like they have received blast damage but severe fire damage which i presume caused the chassis to bend? All of the traffic is one behind the other in a row so i wonder if they have been tipped over to clear the road 

[Spaceman]

The middle lorry in particular seems to show considerable blast damage with one wheel rim blown in half and at least two other lying at the side of the road. It's likely any blast would have ignited the fuel tank and its possible that the lories were carrying ammunition for the guns that appeared to be in the same convoy that could also have ignited or denoted. 

However, I would have thought it would have taken a large shell to flip a lorry but it is difficult to see any other evidence in Doc 3 of where this might have landed. The trees in particular do not show much blast or Shrapnel damage. What is interesting is the large object to the right of the first lorry on the other side of the road. I was trying to work out whether or not this was an engine block?

[Great War Truck]

Ah yes. I had not noticed that. I wonder if that is the gearbox. 

[Great War Truck]

The engine looks like this, so i think more likely a gearbox (on the floor to the right)