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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

British officer’s money belt buckle?


Kathleena

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Hello,

I am new to this site so please let me know if this query is posted in an incorrect area.

It is truly heartwarming to see all of the assistance, guidance and expertise being offered to members on this site. I am hopeful that someone will be willing and able to help me identify a special piece in my collection.

 

I am pondering whether or not this piece may be a British officer’s money belt. Any ideas or information will be greatly appreciated and researched. I am very interested in the approximate year the belt buckle(?) would have been manufactured and used by a soldier. The phrase "Honi soit qui mal y pense" roughly translates to “shame on the one who sees something bad/evil in it”. That is about all that I have at this point.. :)

 

Thank you, in advance, for any assistance you can provide. 

Sincerely,

Kathleena

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Kathleen this is a British-Indian cavalry cartouche case from a cavalry pouch belt.  The Pouch belt had a full dress and undress version and was worn slung diagonally in the centre of the back.  Originally to carry ammunition it later became merely ornamental.  Some regiments favoured heavy lace adornments to their cartouche for full dress and others adopted a silver plate cover as you have there.  It dates from after 1902 when the crown on the badge changed from Queen Victoria to the so-called Tudor crown subsequently adopted by all the male Sovereigns until the accession of our present Queen.  It will be possible to narrow down the date as the British-Indian Army was reorganised 3-times between 1861 and 1947, with many regiments changing title and Insignia.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Dear Frogsmile :)

Fabulous!! This is great information and gives me a “starting place” to begin my research!! Thank you SO much!!

👍🏻😃

Edited by Kathleena
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11 minutes ago, Kathleena said:

Dear Frogsmile :)

Fabulous!! This is great information and gives me a “starting place” to begin my research!! Thank you SO much!!

👍🏻😃

 

You seem to have the 6th Duke of Connaught’s Own Lancers (Watson’s Horse).  They were formed from an amalgamation of two earlier regiments in the reorganisation of 1922: 

1. https://wiki.fibis.org/w/6th_Duke_of_Connaught's_Own_Lancers

 

2. Today it is part of the Army of Pakistan: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_Lancers_(Pakistan)#6th_Duke_of_Connaught’s_Own_Lancers_(Watson’s_Horse)

Edited by FROGSMILE
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14 minutes ago, angelab said:

The silver hallmark looks like 1889.

 

It's the silver hallmark for London 1909, not 1889.

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21 minutes ago, angelab said:

The silver hallmark looks like 1889.

Ok, fantastic!! Many thanks to Angelab for “chiming in” on this post. Thank you Andrew!! London 1909 helps me immensely!!👍🏻✨

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🐸 Frogsmile!! Unbelievable!! The information you have given to me is absolutely wonderful!! I will be busy all evening researching this cartouche based on your information and links!! Fab-u-lous!!

Andrew offered insight into the date/location of the hallmark being London 1909. 

I am so excited and thrilled that I have this information!! 

This piece is so beautiful and I am thrilled that it is now in my collection. It is way too beautiful to be sitting in an antique store collecting dust. I am so pleased that I purchased it!! 

Thank you Frogsmile, Angelab and Andrew!!

😄👍🏻✨

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12 hours ago, Kathleena said:

🐸 Frogsmile!! Unbelievable!! The information you have given to me is absolutely wonderful!! I will be busy all evening researching this cartouche based on your information and links!! Fab-u-lous!!

Andrew offered insight into the date/location of the hallmark being London 1909. 

I am so excited and thrilled that I have this information!! 

This piece is so beautiful and I am thrilled that it is now in my collection. It is way too beautiful to be sitting in an antique store collecting dust. I am so pleased that I purchased it!! 

Thank you Frogsmile, Angelab and Andrew!!

😄👍🏻✨

 

I’m glad to have been of assistance Kathleen.  The date of the hallmark is intriguing, as it suggests that the cartouche plate was originally made for one of the forebear regiments (both were also Lancers, the 13th for the longest) and then the gilded brass badge retrofitted - probably to replace an earlier badge, perhaps the 13th’s as their badge was similar in shape - in time for the amalgamation forming the new regiment in 1922.  It tells a story.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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57 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

It's the silver hallmark for London 1909, not 1889.

 

Oh whoops, thank you Andrew! I wasn't' sure if it was an upper case or lower case o!  Obviously picked the wrong one...

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2 hours ago, angelab said:

 

Oh whoops, thank you Andrew! I wasn't' sure if it was an upper case or lower case o!  Obviously picked the wrong one...

 

Always worth double checking the shape/outline in which the letter is stamped as well, which is the key diagnostic here for differentiating the two. Between 1876 and 1895 London used a shield shape, mostly with a three pointed top. From 1896 to 1935 they changed to the more square shape with the top corners clipped and the three pointed base as here.

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Also Kathleena, as you are probably aware, the Latin motto is that of the Order of the Garter, plenty of information on it in Wikipedia.

Philip

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