susancammas Posted 11 January , 2018 Share Posted 11 January , 2018 Good evening I have just come across the First World war website: http://www.firstworldwar.com/diaries/edwinjones.htm and where I read the followig extracts from Lt. Edwin Jones’s diary : “December 21st 1915 Good-bye France, you have given me some sleepless nights, and many a hard day's work. I very much regret leaving you for foreign parts, but some day I shall return to you and go over all the ground again; no doubt it will recall many sad recollections. Boarded the S.S. "Vita" at Marseilles at 11 a.m., after rushing about and looking after the equipment. “ ……. “January 21st 1916 Disembarked and said good-bye to S.S. "Vita" at 10 a.m. We gave three very hearty cheers to the Captain for giving us a safe journey. “ I was very excited because I am trying to trace my grandfather’s activity in Mesopotamia between December 1915 and December 1917 and think he might have been on the same ship. According to his service records, he embarked for Mesopotamia with 131 Bde on 20th December 1915, however, this is incorrect, because according to their War Diary, this Brigade served in France until June 1916. I have not been able to find out exactly where he served in Mesopotamia (and perhaps Palestine), between December 1915 and December 1917. His service record shows that he was on sick leave in Poona with colitis from June to August 1916. The War Diary of 30th Brigade RFA (WO-95-5169-6_03 - beginning in December 1917) indicates the Brigade was in Sharoban and my grandfather’s name appears on the officers’ list (Captain of the Brigade Ammunition column) from that date until he went “on leave in England” (October, November and December 1918). So, do any of you happen to know which units were on board SS Vita? This information may enable me to find him in the correct war diary. Thank you in advance for any help/advice you can provide. Kind regards Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 11 January , 2018 Share Posted 11 January , 2018 (edited) Susan I'm no expert on this shipping but there must have been quite a number used at the time (Dec1915-Jan1916 on) to bring the 3rd Lahore and 7th Meerut Divisions from France to Mesopotamia to assist Gen Nixon's attempts to relieve the garrison under siege in Kut since 7/12/15. I would also remind you to be very careful when looking at brigade numbers. Are we talking Artillery, Infantry, British Army, Indian Army etc? There is plenty of scope for misunderstanding. But I suspect from all your searches that you are already well aware Whether on the Vita or another ship the 2 divisions above might be worth checking through their orbats of the time? Reinforcements were also being scrounged from Egypt. Charlie Edited 11 January , 2018 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susancammas Posted 13 January , 2018 Author Share Posted 13 January , 2018 Thanks Charlie for your advice. My grandfather was in the RHA/RFA. He was a BQMS prior to his promotion to Lt. What is most interesting about his career is that prior to the outbrreak of war he was in India and Egypt. He was with H battery in Meerut in January 1902 then transferred to T in 1904 (Amballa) and went with them to Egypt in October 1910 until June 1914 when he returned to GB. So, in view of his Indian/Egyptian experience I thought that he might have been detached from the unit he was with in France and attached to a unit going to Mesopotamia. All this, as you have guessed, is part of my (failing) efforts to trace his movements. I think I'm just going to draw a line under what information I have. However, I'll give it one last go - where can I find the orbats you mentioned? Many thanks Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotonmate Posted 13 January , 2018 Share Posted 13 January , 2018 (edited) Susan The ship embarkation and disembarkation returns are filed at Kew, but need to be seen there. WO25/3542 covers embarkations between stations overseas from Oct - Dec 1915, and, WO25/3711 covers disembarkations between stations overseas from Jan - Mar 1916. They ordinarily list units/officers by name/troops by number of men per unit so you should get an idea of which unit your GF was posted with. You must hope that the embark ship went straight to Mespot and not some interim transhipment port where a change of vessel may have occurred ! I see that you are in France so if you have no means of looking at the records please advise by PM as I can do so when I go to Kew with my brother sometime quite soon. Edited 13 January , 2018 by sotonmate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 13 January , 2018 Share Posted 13 January , 2018 Susan, I have seen many of your previous postings re your searches. You are wonderfully persistant! I have only been able to comment a couple of times. As I understand it now, you are tryng to make sense of his 1916 period. In December 1915 he will have been posted to Mespot as part of the long overdue promised reinforcements required there. He will have landed Basra probably Jan 1916. The organisation at Basrah was terrible, troops were landed without their equipment, totally unfamiliar units were brigaded together, chaos. Kut had been under siege since December 1915 and the Relief Force was rushed up, before it was ready, to try to relieve the Garrison. Heroic fights, huge losses, stubborn Turkish resistance and appalling climatic conditions constantly stalled the Relief attempts. As reinforcements arrived they were rushed up to the front. Your GF could well have made it to the Relief Force or may have fallen sick before hand. Either way he seems to have been shipped off to India to recover hence those 'odd' Poona/Ooty entries. He would have gone back to Mespot asap. After the fall of Kut end of April 1916 there was a pause before the resumption of the campaign under General Maude, recapture of Kut, Capture of Baghdad etc I shall be fascinated to learn what sort of detail is in the embarkation returns of that period. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susancammas Posted 13 January , 2018 Author Share Posted 13 January , 2018 Thanks for your encouragement Charlie! If and when I get any information on the returns, of course I'll share it with you (provided my kind source agrees!) Susan PS: I expect you are an expert on Mesopotamia and the shambles it seems to have been, but I came across a very interesting diary a few days ago, which might interest you: http://www.firstworldwar.com/diaries/edwinjones.htm . It really highlights the chaos and organisational problems the poor soldiers had to put up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKC Posted 13 January , 2018 Share Posted 13 January , 2018 This site: http://regimentalrogue.com/misc/great_war_hospital_ships.htm lists Vita as a hospital ship from Oct 15. I think I've seen references to it as such (posting orders of medical personnel), voyaging between Meso and India, during the 1916-18 period. And I'm reasonably sure there was an officers' hospital at Poona: if I can find the reference, I'll post the hospital's name as described. Might be another avenue of inquiry for you. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 13 January , 2018 Share Posted 13 January , 2018 (edited) On 1/11/2018 at 18:26, susancammas said: According to his service records, he embarked for Mesopotamia with 131 Bde on 20th December 1915, however, this is incorrect, because according to their War Diary, this Brigade served in France until June 1916. Susan, The 131st Brigade RFA did stay in France but the 131st Brigade Ammunition Column was split up between 60th Bty and 61st Bty for the journey to Mesopotamia. These two batteries then formed 134th (Howitzer) Brigade RFA on May 2, 1916, but it was known as 4.5" Howitzer Brigade until November 13, 1916, then broken up on June 18, 1917. As your grandfather was Captain of the 30th Brigade Ammunition Column later in 1917, it is reasonable to assume he was previously in 134th (Howitzer) Brigade Ammunition Column. Edited 13 January , 2018 by David Porter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimberley John Lindsay Posted 13 January , 2018 Share Posted 13 January , 2018 Dear David, I was much impressed (and Susan, no doubt, too) at the depth of your knowledge... Well done! Kindest regards, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 14 January , 2018 Share Posted 14 January , 2018 17 hours ago, David Porter said: it is reasonable to assume he was previously in 134th No need to assume because its written there in his service record as posted by Susan in an earlier thread. David, the 60th and 61st Btys took part as Corps Troops in most of the Relief Force actions. Are you saying that the split ammunition column would have remained with them at this time, ie pre May 1916 ? Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
susancammas Posted 14 January , 2018 Author Share Posted 14 January , 2018 Good afternoon I rushed to TNA to find the war diary for 60th battery in case my GF was mentioned, only to be disappointed. However, I did find the following entry, which might interest you: "23rd January 1916: 60th battery A. C. arrived in camp ex ss Melville." The outside cover of the diary says: Mesopotamia 3 (Indian) Corps Troops 60 battery RFA 1915 Dec - 1916 Apr4 From France By the way, are there any other war diaries for 134th RFA other than 95/5078 which (in several files from December 1915 to 31 May 1916) covers: Mesopotamia 3 Corps Troops Howitzer Bde RGA 72 Heavy Battery RGA There are a total of 43 pages in these diaries and there is no mention of my GF or ammunition columns. Enjoy the weekend. Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 14 January , 2018 Share Posted 14 January , 2018 Charlie, In answer to your question, Yes, that is what is implied by the attached document. Susan has just added that on arrival in Mespot they were treated as separate Battery Ammunition Columns. In addition I have this: 61st Bty & AC embarked at Marseilles on "SS Royal George" on December 6, 1915, disembarked at Basra on December 24, 1915 60th Bty embarked at Marseilles on "SS Anglo Egyptian" on December 19, 1915, disembarked at Magil on January 15, 1916. 60th Bty AC disembarked from "SS Melville" at Magil on January 23, 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 14 January , 2018 Share Posted 14 January , 2018 David, fascinating bits of detail. Surprising how many fragments of ammunition columns are in existence ! You have probably successfully identified the ships whose embarkation/disembarkation manifests need checking in line with Sotonmate's posts ? charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Porter Posted 29 July , 2020 Share Posted 29 July , 2020 (edited) On 14/01/2018 at 13:44, charlie962 said: You have probably successfully identified the ships whose embarkation/disembarkation manifests need checking in line with Sotonmate's posts ? I've just come across the embarkation manifests in the Marseilles Base Commandants War Diary. The elusive Captain was with 131st Brigade Ammunition Column attached to 60th Battery on "SS Melville". Unfortunately @susancammas has not visited for a while. Pictures courtesy of National Archives WO 95/4037-5. Edited 29 July , 2020 by David Porter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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