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Remembered Today:

Collection of Bayonets


alantwo

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I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on a small collection of seven bayonets which the owner, and family member, thought were mostly WW1 with the exception of No.7. I didn't have a tape measure on me when I took the photographs but all the blades except the last one were over one foot (300mm) long. Any clarification or identification of each that I could report back would be helpful. My thanks in advance.

 

Bayonet 1

The owner thought this might be an officer's sword but I'm more inclined to think it is a bayonet. It is somewhat unusual in that the blade is flat but not straight. There is an inscription on the top of the blade which is badly worn away (1C) and I think it begins Pte, hence 'Private'. There are a couple of numbers (1B and 1D) which may help with the identification.

 

 

1A.jpg

1B.jpg

1C.jpg

1D.jpg

1E.jpg

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Bayonet 2

 

A flat blade similar to Bayonet 6 but with a different handle. There looks to be a crown stamp adjacent to the handle (2B) along with a series of numbers. Obviously ignore the string it's just the manner in which they are all hung on the wall.

2A.jpg

2B.jpg

2C.jpg

3 minutes ago, museumtom said:

Possible Chassepot.

 

Many thanks Tom, any idea of year? Country?

 

Regards

Alan

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Bayonet 4

 

I don't think this is a bayonet as there doesn't appear to be any means of fixing it to a rifle. Possibly a form of ceremonial sword or a large dagger?

4A.jpg

4B.jpg

Edited by alantwo
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Bayonet 5

 

For me the most interesting as the blade in cross section is a '+' or 'x'. The owner believes it is Belgian and that it was taken out of service early in WW1. The whole is in very good condition.

 

 

5A.jpg

5B.jpg

5C.jpg

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Bayonet 6

 

The blade appears to be similar to Bayonet 2 but with a different handle. Unlike Bayonet 2 there are no marking on the blade.

6A.jpg

6B.jpg

6C.jpg

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Bayonet 7

 

I think this may be WW2, but I would appreciate any comments/confirmation. Quite a short blade, perhaps 8" (200mm) long.

 

This is the last one.

 

My thanks for Tom's comment (before I got to post the second bayonet!) and in advance to anyone else who can help.

 

Regards

Alan

7A.jpg

7B.jpg

7C.jpg

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1= Chassepot (as per Tom - M1866)

2= British 1907 Pattern Bayonet (for SMLE standard British Great War bayonet)

3= French 1874 Gras Bayonet (limited second line WWI use)

5 = Shortened (WWII) French M1886 Epee bayonet (I think officially M1886/16/35)

6 = Pattern 1913 Bayonet for Pattern 1914 rifle (some WWI use and WWII Home Guard LDV)

7 = Enfield Rifle No5 bayonet (1944-1947) - these are actually quite sought after and can be expensive although this is in a bit rough condition

 

Chris

Edited by 4thGordons
typo
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P1907 in photo 2c looks to be regimentally stamped on the pommel, but can't quite make it out.

havent a clue about No4, but I think on the same lines as you it being a sword / dagger.

 

Dave.

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1 hour ago, Dave66 said:

P1907 in photo 2c looks to be regimentally stamped on the pommel, but can't quite make it out.

havent a clue about No4, but I think on the same lines as you it being a sword / dagger.

 

Dave.

It looks like LN Dave 

 

Dan

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10 minutes ago, Bean tool said:

It looks like LN Dave 

 

Dan

Could be an L, an I or a 1...but looks to be something after the N so a clearer close up would be called for if possible.

 

Dave.

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Bayonet 1, photo 1C, the inscription reads St.Ettiene, the location of the armoury in France that made it.  There should also be a date.

 

Bayonet 3 should also be marked with armoury and date on the spine.

 

Mike.

Edited by MikeyH
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5 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

1= Chassepot (as per Tom - M1866)

2= British 1907 Pattern Bayonet (for SMLE standard British Great War bayonet)

3= French 1874 Gras Bayonet (limited second line WWI use)

5 = Shortened (WWII) French M1886 Epee bayonet (I think officially M1886/16/35)

6 = Pattern 1913 Bayonet for Pattern 1914 rifle (some WWI use and WWII Home Guard LDV)

7 = Enfield Rifle No5 bayonet (1944-1947) - these are actually quite sought after and can be expensive although this is in a bit rough condition

 

As per Chris' identifications except for No.6 which is the similar US Model 1917 'twin'... no clearance holes in the British Pattern 1913 bayonet. :thumbsup:

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6 minutes ago, shippingsteel said:

 

As per Chris' identifications except for No.6 which is the similar US Model 1917 'twin'... no clearance holes in the British Pattern 1913 bayonet. :thumbsup:

Just testing! Happy new year!

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My thanks to everyone who took the time to reply, really helpful.

 

Dave and Dan, the extra detail for Bayonet 2 is below, it looks to me as if the stamp is I.N. What does that mean?

 

Mike, I looked up Chassepot after Tom's comment. There were some images of St Etienne on the internet and I would say this is the same script that is on the top of the blade as you suggest. The date appears to have been rubbed off with use, but I'll see if I can enhance the photograph. I didn't notice anything on the blade of Bayonet 3, but I'll take a look on the next visit.

 

Chris and Shipping Steel, would the American Bayonet (6) have a model number/reference that I can look up.

 

Regards

Alan

 

 

2B i.jpg

2C i.jpg

2C ii.jpg

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21 hours ago, MikeyH said:

Bayonet 1, photo 1C, the inscription reads St.Ettiene, the location of the armoury in France that made it.  There should also be a date.

 

Bayonet 3 should also be marked with armoury and date on the spine.

 

Mike.

 

Mike

 

I've enlarged and converted photo 1C to greyscale, played around with the brightness and contrast and I think your suggestion of St Etienne is spot on. Unfortunately the remainder of the script does appear to have been worn away, there might be a hint of an 'i', but it's difficult to say. There is a number P 29055 (Production number?) next to the handle, not sure if that will help.

 

Regards

Alan

1C i.jpg

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P1907, with manufacture date of March 1917 (3 17), by Wilkinson and inspected in 1918 (18).

With regards the pommel markings, I was hoping to see an F at the end making it IN.F...inniskilling fusiliers. Hopefully somebody else will have a look and enlighten us.

 

regards,

 

Dave.

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4 hours ago, alantwo said:

Chris and Shipping Steel, would the American Bayonet (6) have a model number/reference that I can look up.

Regards

Alan

 

 

US Model 1917 is the standard description - it fits the  Rifle .30 Caliber Model of 1917

The blade should probably have some stamping on it to indicate manufacturer (Remington or Winchester) but it may be obscured by corrosion.

Rear will typically have a US and Grenade inspection stamp.

Chris

Edited by 4thGordons
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Hi Alan,

 

Bayonet 1, the M1866 Chassepot, should be year dated to 1871, 1872 or 1873. Your close up is the month (which I can't get unless it is Avril), the year will follow just out of the picture. It is 1871/2/3 because up to 1870 was the French Second Empire and the St Etienne is preceded by the abbreviation for Manufacture Impériale, from 1873 as it was the Third Republic St Etienne is preceded by the abbreviation for Manufacture d'Armes. The P xxxxxxx on the crosspiece is the serial number which would have matched the rifle.

 

Re the 1907, bayonet 2, I wonder if the pommel mark N is for Navy.

 

Cheers,

Tony

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Alan,

 

Tony has answered your #17 in full.  The spine of these bayonets are sometimes 'overcleaned', resulting in inscription loss.  The bayonet P29055 and scabbard 79331 are non matching, which is common with the Chassepot.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

 

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22 hours ago, Dave66 said:

P1907, with manufacture date of March 1917 (3 17), by Wilkinson and inspected in 1918 (18).

With regards the pommel markings, I was hoping to see an F at the end making it IN.F...inniskilling fusiliers. Hopefully somebody else will have a look and enlighten us.

 

regards,

 

Dave.

 

Dave, many thanks for your reply, Tony's suggestion (post 20) is possibly Navy. Next time I visit I'll take another look perhaps the 'I' is a '1'.

 

Regards

Alan

20 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

 

US Model 1917 is the standard description - it fits the  Rifle .30 Caliber Model of 1917

The blade should probably have some stamping on it to indicate manufacturer (Remington or Winchester) but it may be obscured by corrosion.

Rear will typically have a US and Grenade inspection stamp.

Chris

 

Thanks for the clarification Chris much appreciated. Now I know what I'm looking for it will help.

 

Regards

Alan

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20 hours ago, msdt said:

Hi Alan,

 

Bayonet 1, the M1866 Chassepot, should be year dated to 1871, 1872 or 1873. Your close up is the month (which I can't get unless it is Avril), the year will follow just out of the picture. It is 1871/2/3 because up to 1870 was the French Second Empire and the St Etienne is preceded by the abbreviation for Manufacture Impériale, from 1873 as it was the Third Republic St Etienne is preceded by the abbreviation for Manufacture d'Armes. The P xxxxxxx on the crosspiece is the serial number which would have matched the rifle.

 

Re the 1907, bayonet 2, I wonder if the pommel mark N is for Navy.

 

Cheers,

Tony

 

5 hours ago, MikeyH said:

Alan,

 

Tony has answered your #17 in full.  The spine of these bayonets are sometimes 'overcleaned', resulting in inscription loss.  The bayonet P29055 and scabbard 79331 are non matching, which is common with the Chassepot.

 

Regards,

 

Mike.

 

 

Tony and Mike

 

Many thanks for your help and input, the additional information always helps to colour in the background.

 

Regards

Alan

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On 1/10/2018 at 00:42, shippingsteel said:

 

As per Chris' identifications except for No.6 which is the similar US Model 1917 'twin'... no clearance holes in the British Pattern 1913 bayonet. :thumbsup:

 

Good to see you back SS - yes, another New Year, and Trajan is indeed "still here!" So Happy New Year also to you!:thumbsup:

 

When you get a chance, have a look at something you might like:

An Investigation of the Weights of Pattern 1907 Bayonets made in the UK around the First World War Period.pdf

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On 1/9/2018 at 19:18, alantwo said:

Bayonet 5

 

The bayonet itself is one of the late model French M. 1866 "Lebel" versions - "late" because although it has the "German silver" hilt associated with the original model, it has lost its quillon and so should be a - if a recall correctly - a 1916 one. There should be a number on the base of the crossguard. 

 

BUT, does this have a 40cm blade? In which case it might be (as the scabbard and frog suggest) a WW2 German conversion - a "Seitengewehr 103(f)". The frog looks original, and so a fairly rare item! 

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