Frederick George Wernham

[HolymoleyRE]

Dear GWF Pals, 

 

In my endeavour to track down those that served, survived or died from Hermitage, Berks I am stuck on Pte Frederick George Wernham....

 

Born 1899, to James & Hannah.

 

Enlisted into the Devonshire Regiment given number 32216, my presumption due to his age this would have been with the 53rd Grad Btn in 1916/17.  It doesn't seem many service records exist to support a clear trajectory, a few pension records but nothing too consistant. But he goes overseas with the 2nd Btn Devonshires.

 

Having spoken to his grandson today he said he was Lewis Gunner in the Devonshires.

 

But then he is moved into the Worcestershire Regiment #70411, along with what seems a large number of other 2nd Btn Devonshire men.

 

Any clues as to;

 

When? (saw one service record suggesting April 1918).

 

Who to (None of the medal rolls appear to give a WR Btn).

 

Why? (moved off the Ypres front, to a WR Btn on the Somme).

 

All help greatly received.

 

Andy

[clk]

Hi Andy,

 

Not exactly scientific, nor a large sample, but from this limited near number search I looked at the first couple of hits - 70413 Barnett and 70415 Giles. Both seem to have been 2/Devons transferred under authority to the Worcestershire Regiment on 16th March 1919, and posted to the 2/8th Bn. 

 

Regards

Chris

[HolymoleyRE]

14 minutes ago, clk said:

Hi Andy,

 

Not exactly scientific, nor a large sample, but from this limited near number search I looked at the first couple of hits - 70413 Barnett and 70415 Giles. Both seem to have been 2/Devons transferred under authority to the Worcestershire Regiment on 16th March 1919, and posted to the 2/8th Bn. 

 

Regards

Chris

 

Thank you Sir, well the same search on Ancestry brings up none of those service records!

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[HolymoleyRE]

Some have similar path, enlist 1917, 53rd Grad (YS) Btn, then the 2nd Btn, until 1919.

 

Thanks again Chris.

 

Andy

[PRC]

2 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said:

 

Enlisted into the Devonshire Regiment given number 32216, my presumption due to his age this would have been with the 53rd Grad Btn in 1916/17.  It doesn't seem many service records exist to support a clear trajectory, a few pension records but nothing too consistant. But he goes overseas with the 2nd Btn Devonshires.

 

 

I thought the 51st / 52nd / 53rd Battalion system didn't come in until the last quarter of 1917 - - looking at the LLT, if it was the Devon battalions then they didn't exist until the 27th October 1917. If his service starts with the 53rd then he can't have been conscripted until after that date.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/devonshire-regiment/

 

1 hour ago, clk said:

Not exactly scientific, nor a large sample, but from this limited near number search I looked at the first couple of hits - 70413 Barnett and 70415 Giles. Both seem to have been 2/Devons transferred under authority to the Worcestershire Regiment on 16th March 1919, and posted to the 2/8th Bn. 

 

So his wartime overseas service is all with the 2nd Devonshires is how I'm reading that, and that's what the Medal Rolls would reflect. They were part of the 8th Division - reading through the official history of that unit, the only relevant piece of information I can see is that on the 15th March 1919, the 8th Division lost its G.O.C., General Heneker, who moved to take command of the Southern Division in the Army of the Rhine. In my experience,  War Diaries were maintained well into 1919 so you might want to look out the 2nd Devons and the 2/8th Worcesters to see if there is anything in there between them to explain the transfer.

 

One angle you might to explore is that the 8th Division was being got ready to return to a peacetime Regular Army establishment and that duration of the war men were being shaken out and displaced to units like the 2/8th Worcesters, (and the 61st Division of which they were part), for ease of demobilisation. As the transfer happens on the first day a new G.O.C. takes charge, I suspect its more than a coincidence.

 

Regards,

Peter

[HolymoleyRE]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

thought the 51st / 52nd / 53rd Battalion system didn't come in until the last quarter of 1917

Indeed Peter and thanks, some of the surviving records have the 35th Btn, some say YS Battalion, and some 53rd with some differing dates...just need to write the numbers and info in order to figure it out.

 

Andy

[HolymoleyRE]

Solved, thanks Chris and Peter,

 

WD for the 2nd Btn Devons, 1st March 1919, draft of 150 men to be sent to the 2/8th Worcestershire Regiment for Army of Occupation.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

 

 

[PRC]

3 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said:

 

WD for the 2nd Btn Devons, 1st March 1919, draft of 150 men to be sent to the 2/8th Worcestershire Regiment for Army of Occupation.

 

 

Unless I've misunderstood, the 2nd Devons were part of the Army of Occupation and 2/8ths as part of 61st Division were in France. That Division was being rapidly run down and would cease to exist by the end of July 1919. (I'm just querying the "for Army of Occupation" part of the statement :-)

[HolymoleyRE]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

Unless I've misunderstood, the 2nd Devons were part of the Army of Occupation and 2/8ths as part of 61st Division were in France. That Division was being rapidly run down and would cease to exist by the end of July 1919. (I'm just querying the "for Army of Occupation" part of the statement :-)

You are correct Peter, misread the WD wording in my hast read it the other way...

 

 

Edited 7 January , 2018 by HolymoleyRE

[PRC]

I don’t know if it helps, but some of the Worcestershire Regiment in the Great War Volume 2 by Captain H FitzM. Stacke can be seen on line at Google Books.

 

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oHa-BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA531&lpg=PA531&dq=Worcestershire+Regiment+in+the+Great+War+(Vol+1+%26+2)+FitzM+Stacke&source=bl&ots=mpdYPwaZwE&sig=OcMzr03-orw5JqjAWWCnf9_TB6Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ7pfPgsbYAhWCHsAKHdvABuYQ6AEISDAH#v=onepage&q=Worcestershire%20Regiment%20in%20the%20Great%20War%20(Vol%201%20%26%202)%20FitzM%20Stacke&f=false

 

The bottom of page 494 deals with 2/8^th Battalion.

 

It was not yet possible to withdraw from France the whole of the British Armies. Vast quantities of stores still in that country had to be protected, prisoners of war had still to be guarded, and other similar duties had to be carried out. For that purpose it was decided to reconstitute with fresh personnel many of those “Service” battalions which it was intended ultimately to disband. The 2/8^th Battalion of the Regiment was one of those selected for that reconstitution. The Battalion was detached from the 61^st Division and proceeded on February 7^th by rail to Cherbourg, to guard army stores and a labour camp. The Battalion settled down in a camp of Nissen huts at Tourville, and for the next three months all ranks were busily engaged on guard duty. For that purpose the 2/8^th Worcestershire were strengthened by drafts from the 1^st, 1^st/8^th and 17^th Battalions of the Regiment and from several other units (note i), until by the middle of April the strength of the Battalion totalled 29 officers and about 1050 rank and file.

 

Note I – lists the principal drafts including March 19/23^rd 2 officers and 146 other ranks from the 2^nd Devons.

 

Page 495 is not available in the book preview so you may want to see if someone has the original and can flesh out the next part, which probably refers to the incidents touched on in the LLT piece for the 61^st Division. They don’t appear to get any further mentions in the book after that page.

 

Two battalions were detached for duties at the Base Ports, otherwise the Division was chiefly employed on guard duty and working parties. A battalion was sent to restore order when trouble broke out between the British West Indies Regiment and the Chinese Labour Corps at Abancourt. In July drafts were sent to Egypt and the Black Sea, and Divisional HQ in France closed on 30 July 1919.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/61st-2nd-south-midland-division/

 

Cheers,

Peter

[HolymoleyRE]

Thanks Peter, all good stuff to pass on to his Grandson and support my project.

 

Andy