Gareth Davies Posted 30 December , 2017 Share Posted 30 December , 2017 Were murderers buried in unmarked graves in 1919? Does anyone know the CWGC's view on headstones for murderers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 December , 2017 Share Posted 30 December , 2017 This link on Mr. Google's Apparatus may answer your questions. CWGC is merely concerned with memorialising those who died in service or as a result of it. The answer-retrospectively-would seem to be to dishonourably discharge prior to execution I do not know of any examples as such but it is likely that there are those commemorated by CWGC who were executed as murderers by the King's Enemies. Another moral poser perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 30 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 30 December , 2017 There was no execution. And there is no link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 30 December , 2017 Share Posted 30 December , 2017 Have another go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbirduk Posted 30 December , 2017 Share Posted 30 December , 2017 I beleive it depends on the circumstances of the Murder. If the Man was tried and executed by a civilain Court and executed in a Civilian Jail, I beleive the man would be discharged from the Armed forces prior to the execution and would usually be buried in an unmarked grave by the civil Authorities, so no IWGC involvement. If however he was tried by a Field court martial and was executed by the Military arm, this would usually be only where the victim was also on Active service, the grave would be marked by an IWGC stone, someone told me that if the Soldiers effects register simply uses the term "Died" rather than "Killed in Action" or "died of Wounds" it indicated an execution, but I am not sure on that. I guess the $64,000 question is, does a moments madness resulting in the death of another person cancel out possibly 5 years of active service? The whole arena of executions is a nightmare for CWGC, recently there has been a kerfuffle over a soldier named on the 39/45 Memorial at Brookwood as having no known grave who was a self confessed double deserter and was executed after a court Martial by the civil power and buried in an unmarked grave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 30 December , 2017 Share Posted 30 December , 2017 I have a soldier who shot two comrades in cold blood then turned the gun on himself and commited suicide he is commemorated with a CWGC stone Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 30 December , 2017 Share Posted 30 December , 2017 Do you mean murders committed specifically in 1919 or the placing by CWGC of headstones on the graves in 1919 or after? If I remember rightly "Shot at Dawn" is good about where men who were executed are buried whatever the reason for the execution. I did a quick check in "Murderous Tommies" (Putkowski & Dunn). It contains a photo of the stone on this grave: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/573384/chisholm,-alexander/ RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 31 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2017 The specific case I am interested in is of a man who served in the Territorial Force from 1913. He was a Sjt in 1915 when he was discharged for a civil offence (offence unknown). He rejoined, served in France in 1916 and was awarded the DCM. In 1918 he was an instructor at a depot in the UK. After the war he was demobilised and in 1919 he killed his wife (although this wasn't his intent and so my thread title is possible misleading) and then killed himself. There was no trial, there was no execution. He does not appear on the CWGC database. Should he? Should he have a CWGC headstone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 31 December , 2017 Share Posted 31 December , 2017 Seems he was not in the army at the time of the offence, If his death was not attribuatble to his service then i don't think he would have a CWCC headstone, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithmroberts Posted 31 December , 2017 Share Posted 31 December , 2017 If he had been demobilised prior to the murder, and there was no obvious link to his war service, then I can't see why he would qualify for IWGC involvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gareth Davies Posted 31 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 31 December , 2017 I was clearly being stupid. For some reason I thought he might qualify. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 31 December , 2017 Share Posted 31 December , 2017 14 hours ago, tbirduk said: If the Man was tried and executed by a civilain Court and executed in a Civilian Jail, I beleive the man would be discharged from the Armed forces prior to the execution I have a vague recollection of a "murderers" thread from years back where, due to an oversight, a man was not disharged prior to execution and is commemorated by CWGC. Again, from memory, no headstone but commemoration on a screen wall somewhere in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 31 December , 2017 Share Posted 31 December , 2017 59 minutes ago, Gareth Davies said: I was clearly being stupid. For some reason I thought he might qualify. Thank you. GD- Not at all. Perfectly serious point. There is a (not that good) history of CWGC: Gibson, T. A. Edwin; Ward, G. Kingsley (1989). Courage Remembered: The Story Behind the Construction and Maintenance of the Commonwealth's Military Cemeteries and Memorials of the Wars of 1914–18 and 1939–45. London: Stationery Office Books. ISBN 0-11-772608-7. The chapter on who qualifies and who does not is most interesting on all these administrative headaches. A serious point from your example- IFTC has identified many who merit CWGC war grave treatment, many of who died in service in the UK during the war-or from the effects of the war after discharge, if it can be shown. But I am not aware that anyone commemorated was after death through MENTAL illness brought on by the war- only physical. Alas, as you well know, mental damage brought on by war can come out out in tragic circumstances many decades later. In my neck of the woods, we had a sad case of a former WW2 POW of the Japanese who murdered a lady neighbour after being woken by sudden noises which brought on bad memories of his treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 31 December , 2017 Share Posted 31 December , 2017 4 minutes ago, John_Hartley said: I have a vague recollection of a "murderers" thread from years back where, due to an oversight, a man was not disharged prior to execution and is commemorated by CWGC. Again, from memory, no headstone but commemoration on a screen wall somewhere in the UK. possibly this case John Pte. T Moore ASC was shot by firing squad on 26 February 1916 for the murder (by shooting) of Farrier SSgt James Pick Moore's name is on the Menin Gate in Ypres and Pick is buried in Poperinge New Cemetery https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/907346/moore,-thomas/ andhttps://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/139476/pick,-/ [Col M Young mentions this in his history of the ASC, but has an error in the year (1917 instead of 1916)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolt968 Posted 31 December , 2017 Share Posted 31 December , 2017 Appendix 2 in "Murderous Tommies" lists the burial or commemoration places of all (I assume; I haven't checked) men executed in France or Belgium for murder and their victims. Perhaps most notable; CSM Hughie Hayes, 2 Welsh is buried in Bethune Town Cemetery as are the two men who killed him. I think we are clear about burial in France or Belgium, but what happened if a soldier had committed murder in the UK? Presumably if he was executed by "the civil power" the normal process applied - "buried with the precincts ......". Were any men executed for murder in the UK? (Or indeed committed suicide while in service having apparently committed murder?) RM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 31 December , 2017 Share Posted 31 December , 2017 2 hours ago, michaeldr said: possibly this case John Pte. T Moore ASC was shot by firing squad Michael - my recollection was this was a murder in the UK and the man was tried , convicted and sentenced under civilian law. I'll try and find the thread - may be tricky as I'm sure it dates to the very early times of the forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 31 December , 2017 Share Posted 31 December , 2017 OK John Sorry I can't help more as I am not sure I recollect this UK one regards Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitchener's Bugle Posted 31 December , 2017 Share Posted 31 December , 2017 An interesting thread................... from the Soldiers who where shot at dawn, 11 of them where actually executed after hostilities ceased - For Murder. This man, Private A. Denny 8th Battalion, British West Indies Regiment, was executed for murder on 20/01/1919. He is buried with a CWGC Headstone in Taranto Town Cemetery Extension, Italy. However of the 346 men executed, 306 were pardoned; the remaining 40 were those executed for mutiny or murder, who would have been executed even under civilian law. These men did NOT receive the pardon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchdog Posted 21 January , 2021 Share Posted 21 January , 2021 There is a notable exception. 2Lt Paterson. He murdered Sgt Collison DCM (Military Police). But Paterson was also a deserter and at his FGCM he was charged with both desertion and murder. He was found guilty on both charges. Sadly, when bringing the names of those to be pardoned in front of the Sec for State, someone clearly saw the desertion charge and sentence but failed to spot the murder conviction. Paterson was one of the 306 who received a retrospective pardon - and this, therefore, included his conviction for murder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 21 January , 2021 Share Posted 21 January , 2021 16 minutes ago, watchdog said: Paterson was one of the 306 who received a retrospective pardon - and this, therefore, included his conviction for murder! I flag this up only for GWF colleagues who are much more knowledgeable (That is,those with fully functioning brains and memories)- My recollection is that the pardons were for desertion,etc but NOT for murder. That is, the offences were pardoned-and consequently the man as it was usually only the one thing-but that there was no pardon for the murder conviction. I stand to be corrected on this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 21 January , 2021 Share Posted 21 January , 2021 Correct Mike, those shot for murder were not pardoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 21 January , 2021 Share Posted 21 January , 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, jay dubaya said: Correct Mike, those shot for murder were not pardoned. Thought so- but if it was a combination of desertion and murder, then the man was pardoned for the desertion but not the murder. It looks like an exercise in Civil Service black humour ("Well,they still shot him,so what's the point?") The "Shot at Dawn" campaign resulted in equality of treatment vis a vis desertion as there was no sensible way of grading "good" or "bad" cases. If I remember correctly (an increasingly difficult task these days), there is also a very great distinction between "pardon" and "exoneration". Exoneration means the record is wiped clean as if nothing had ever happened. "Pardon" means the facts of the conviction still stand but the sentence is spared. Lot of help that was...... Edited 21 January , 2021 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watchdog Posted 23 January , 2021 Share Posted 23 January , 2021 Sadly he was pardoned for both. That was the point of my post. I write with some knowledge because, as my handle suggests, I was a military police officer and the victim was 'one of ours'. The RMP Regimental Secretary has been mounting a sustained, but so far fruitless, campaign to get the pardon for murder revoked. Seemingly it can't be done. Everyone accepts that it was a mistake but no-one is able to correct it. The Queen's Pardon is, apparently, irrevocable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 23 January , 2021 Share Posted 23 January , 2021 47 minutes ago, watchdog said: Sadly he was pardoned for both. That was the point of my post. I write with some knowledge because, as my handle suggests, I was a military police officer and the victim was 'one of ours'. The RMP Regimental Secretary has been mounting a sustained, but so far fruitless, campaign to get the pardon for murder revoked. Seemingly it can't be done. Everyone accepts that it was a mistake but no-one is able to correct it. The Queen's Pardon is, apparently, irrevocable. My apologies for not knowing of this bad state of affairs vis a vis the "Shot at Dawn" movement. As I live at the "metropolitan" end of Essex, then my knowledge of RMP matters is solely that the entire population of Colchester are either RMP or being guarded by RMP!! Given the hoops that more recent cases have had to go through- no names, no pack drill (Colchester excepted!) - such as those associated with the words "Birmingham" and "Guildford-(say no more), then how on earth could this have happened?.... Other than a casual flip of an MOD stance from resisting everything on the"Shot at Dawn" stuff to-almost casually-flipping over the other way. My clear memory was that other offences were excluded from the deal. May I ask, over and above RMP issues, whether any of the other "Shot at Dawn" candidates were similarly "accidentally" pardoned of murder?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 24 January , 2021 Share Posted 24 January , 2021 On 30/12/2017 at 21:10, tbirduk said: someone told me that if the Soldiers effects register simply uses the term "Died" rather than "Killed in Action" or "died of Wounds" it indicated an execution, but I am not sure on that. I believe those marked “died” on the Soldier’s effects register would be men who’d died of sickness/disease, rather than those executed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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