seaJane Posted 29 December , 2017 Posted 29 December , 2017 HMS Superb - flagship of the Commander-in-chief, Mediterranean, leading the British Fleet to Constantinople, November, 1918 (original in Wikimedia Commons, this is a detail) Can anyone identify what signal she is flying? I know the White Ensign (!), and which flag means she has the CinC Fleet aboard.
The Prussian Posted 30 December , 2017 Posted 30 December , 2017 Hello Jane! Maybe this one helps: http://www.quadibloc.com/other/flaint.htm
John Milner Posted 30 December , 2017 Posted 30 December , 2017 The one at the mast head with the one red dot indicates a Vice Admiral is onboard.
MartH Posted 30 December , 2017 Posted 30 December , 2017 Well the bottom two are in the signals manual of the RN, you just need figure out the first of the three and the signals manual in operation. I am afraid my knowledge is the 1799 Signals and Fighting Instructions as used at Trafalgar.
seaJane Posted 30 December , 2017 Author Posted 30 December , 2017 2 hours ago, John Milner said: The one at the mast head with the one red dot indicates a Vice Admiral is onboard. Yes, that was one I said I knew. 32 minutes ago, MartH said: Well the bottom two are in the signals manual of the RN, you just need figure out the first of the three and the signals manual in operation. I am afraid my knowledge is the 1799 Signals and Fighting Instructions as used at Trafalgar. The bottom two are also in the modern signal book but meanings have changed...
seaJane Posted 30 December , 2017 Author Posted 30 December , 2017 5 hours ago, The Prussian said: Hello Jane! Maybe this one helps: http://www.quadibloc.com/other/flaint.htm Danke, Prussian - I have already run the picture past a modern communications rating, but the modern meanings do not match.
MerchantOldSalt Posted 30 December , 2017 Posted 30 December , 2017 I think it is flag G at the top and numerical flags 1 and 5 underneath which means "Make speed 15 knots". Allowing for artistic licence I would say HMS Superb is making all of that!! Tony
The Prussian Posted 30 December , 2017 Posted 30 December , 2017 There does a book exist about the history of german signal flags. http://www.autoflaggen.de/signalflaggen/
ARABIS Posted 30 December , 2017 Posted 30 December , 2017 2 hours ago, MerchantOldSalt said: I think it is flag G at the top and numerical flags 1 and 5 underneath which means "Make speed 15 knots". Allowing for artistic licence I would say HMS Superb is making all of that!! Tony Attached are a couple of pages from the 1915 Manual of Seamanship which confirm G 1 5. ARABIS.
seaJane Posted 30 December , 2017 Author Posted 30 December , 2017 Perfect, Tony, thank you; to Arabis thanks for the confirmation, & thanks also to others for offers of help. seaJane
MBrockway Posted 30 December , 2017 Posted 30 December , 2017 What about the two cones rigged point uppermost?
Wexflyer Posted 30 December , 2017 Posted 30 December , 2017 25 minutes ago, MBrockway said: What about the two cones rigged point uppermost? Spreaders.
TeeCeeCee Posted 31 December , 2017 Posted 31 December , 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, Wexflyer said: 20 hours ago, MBrockway said: What about the two cones rigged point uppermost? They are speed cones. IIRC their gist of operation are the higher they are raised, the faster the ship (and squadron) will make. Edited 31 December , 2017 by TeeCeeCee
MBrockway Posted 31 December , 2017 Posted 31 December , 2017 1 minute ago, TeeCeeCee said: They are speed cones. IIRC their gist of operation are the higher they are raised, the faster the ship (and squadron) will make. Thanks TCC - they are clearly daytime shapes rather than spreaders (which to me are struts that push standing rigging away from a mast and thereby increase the stiffness of that mast), but two separate cones with points uppermost is not a current recognised signal I know ... in civilian maritime use anyway. Your post explains all. Mark
The Prussian Posted 31 December , 2017 Posted 31 December , 2017 (edited) I don´t know, if sailors from different countries could communicate with those flags. To me it´s a little bit complicated. Maybe some of you could help me with this photo. V R R Q ? According to the german flags from 1913 ( http://www.autoflaggen.de/signalflaggen/ ) it could be A W W G. But that doesn´t make it easier... Edited 31 December , 2017 by The Prussian
MikB Posted 31 December , 2017 Posted 31 December , 2017 (edited) On 30/12/2017 at 12:10, MerchantOldSalt said: I think it is flag G at the top and numerical flags 1 and 5 underneath which means "Make speed 15 knots". Allowing for artistic licence I would say HMS Superb is making all of that!! Tony She should be doing some other speed - the signal was to be executed when it was hauled down IIRC 😉. Edited 31 December , 2017 by MikB
TeeCeeCee Posted 3 January , 2018 Posted 3 January , 2018 On 31/12/2017 at 16:22, The Prussian said: I don´t know, if sailors from different countries could communicate with those flags. To me it´s a little bit complicated. Maybe some of you could help me with this photo. V R R Q ? According to the german flags from 1913 ( http://www.autoflaggen.de/signalflaggen/ ) it could be A W W G. But that doesn´t make it easier... It looks to me that the flags and ensigns, etc, are simply being used as decoration, so there won't be a meaning in their arrangement. I've seen images of a ship hosting a reception where they fashioned a marquee with an awning rigged above the deck for a roof and signal flags were arranged along the deck edge for the walls.
The Prussian Posted 3 January , 2018 Posted 3 January , 2018 Hello! Hmm, I don´t know. It was the prussian navy. Nothing happened without a sense... Once upon a time there was a code-book with all codes of the imperial navy. Codes like VRRQ or AWWG. Today only one book survived the decades. I read, it is in a north-german museum today. Maybe these flags mean "man-over-board" or something else?
TeeCeeCee Posted 3 January , 2018 Posted 3 January , 2018 2 minutes ago, The Prussian said: Hello! Hmm, I don´t know. It was the prussian navy. Nothing happened without a sense... Once upon a time there was a code-book with all codes of the imperial navy. Codes like VRRQ or AWWG. Today only one book survived the decades. I read, it is in a north-german museum today. Maybe these flags mean "man-over-board" or something else? Hi They appear to be having a sports day with either a swimming race or water polo being played... note the strip of bunting. They've simply used the ships linen to brighten the occasion. P.S. The 'man over board' signal would be a suitable joke in the above scenario so it maybe possible. 😉
Lawryleslie Posted 3 January , 2018 Posted 3 January , 2018 On 30/12/2017 at 19:42, MBrockway said: What about the two cones rigged point uppermost? Means "I am underway". G15 is make 15 knots.
The Prussian Posted 3 January , 2018 Posted 3 January , 2018 11 minutes ago, TeeCeeCee said: Hi They appear to be having a sports day with either a swimming race or water polo being played... note the strip of bunting. They've simply used the ships linen to brighten the occasion. P.S. The 'man over board' signal would be a suitable joke in the above scenario so it maybe possible. 😉 Of course, I used it as a suitable joke.... It also could mean "lunch is ready"...
TeeCeeCee Posted 3 January , 2018 Posted 3 January , 2018 (edited) 23 hours ago, Lawryleslie said: Means "I am underway". G15 is make 15 knots. There's a bit more to them than that. 1911 Manual of Seamanship. Vol 1. Pg34. 1. Every ship is supplied with 2 steam cones which should always be bent on when at sea, hosted point upwards, though only one is used. ... 2. The cone is always hoisted at the yard arm point up when going ahead and point down when astern. 3. The position of the cone, whether close up, one fourth, one half or close down, shows the speed at which the engines are working; and the distance between cone and yard arm will always indicate the extent to which speed can be increased without lighting additional fires. The cone close up indicating full speed with the boilers in use. 4. Hoisting the cone always indicates an increase and lowering a decrease in speed. When stopped, the cone is to be below the gunwhale. 5. It is to be hoisted or lowered whenever a material alteration of speed takes place, as the readiest means of warning other ships; but not to be moved for such small alterations of speed as are necessary for keeping station, these alterations being sufficiently indicated by the revolution flag. Edited 4 January , 2018 by TeeCeeCee Typo in year. Changed 'speed cone' into 'steam cone'
MBrockway Posted 3 January , 2018 Posted 3 January , 2018 Pals - I believe my question has now been comprehensively answered! Many thanks! Mark
seaJane Posted 4 January , 2018 Author Posted 4 January , 2018 7 hours ago, MBrockway said: Jellicoe had first hand experience of the deficiencies of flag signalling being one of the survivors from HMS Victoria colliding with HMS Camperdown in 1894 He had a shipmate from HMS Victoria at Jutland - Joseph Agnew Moon, Fleet Surgeon HMS Benbow, was surgeon aboard Victoria when Camperdown rammed her, and survived by dint of clambering up the hull as she turned turtle (info from newspaper reports on the death of George Bassett Moon, his nephew, lost aboard HMS Lion). sJ
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