Definition of Subaltern

[Perth Digger]

Was a subaltern only a 2nd Lieutenant, or did the phrase include Lieutenants? I've always assumed that both ranks were included, but a book I'm reading assumes otherwise. I realise that subaltern was not an "official" rank.

 

Thanks

 

Mike

[Crunchy]

It includes both 2nd Lt and Lt, or it did when I was in the Army having been a subaltern (Lt). 

 

Chris

[Wexflyer]

I believe a subaltern is any commissioned officer under the rank of captain. So it could include ensigns, cornets, etc.  But to muddy the waters, the OED states that it applies especially to 2nd Lieutenants.

Edited 29 December , 2017 by Wexflyer

[Crunchy]

I think you will find that 2nd Lieutenant replaced the rank of Ensign/Cornet in the British Army in the 1870's.  Despite what the OED says in the Army subaltern refers to officers below the rank of Captain ie the two grades of lieutenant.

[Guest]

Subalterns are commissioned* officers below the rank of Captain

 

There was nothing uniform in the British Army; there are inevitably exceptions. In The Royal Horse Guards (the Blues) a Second Lieutenant was known as a Cornet during the Great War, and after. I believe the term is still used in the Blues and Royals. It was in my day. MG

 

* King's Commissions or Queen's Commissions. The term would not apply to an (Hon) Lt QM

Edited 29 December , 2017 by Guest

[Perth Digger]

Thanks, all. I will use the word as usual, viz. to include any rank under Captain.

 

Mike

[Perth Digger]

That's pretty conclusive.  Thanks.

[charlesmessenger]

A full lieutenant is often referred to as a senior subaltern.  Battalions/regiments in the British Army also had (maybe still have) the Senior Subaltern, who was responsible for keeping his fellow subalterns up to the mark. He would also preside over a Subaltern's Court-Martial , a strictly unofficial court which called junior officers to account if it was considered that they had stepped out of line. 

 

Charles M

[Gareth Davies]

11 hours ago, Crunchy said:

I think you will find that 2nd Lieutenant replaced the rank of Ensign/Cornet in the British Army in the 1870's.  

 

Not 100%.

10 hours ago, QGE said:

 In The Royal Horse Guards (the Blues) a Second Lieutenant was known as a Cornet during the Great War, and after. I believe the term is still used in the Blues and Royals. It was in my day. MG

 

The RHG/D do indeed still use the term, as do the QRH.

[Old Tom]

From the back of my mind,  somewhere,  commissioned officers are either subaltern, field or general. If that is so and there is no doubt that majors are field officers; captains are subalterns.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Old Tom said:

captains are subalterns.

 

This is not correct. 

 

2nd Bn KRRC War Diary 7th Aug 1914.  

12:00 pm.  An order received cancelling entrainment of Battalion as laid down in Expeditionary Time Table for 8th Aug.

Order received from War Office to  send 1 Capt, 2 Subaltern Officers, 15 Sgts and Corporals to Rifle Depot, WINCHESTER,  to help raise a new unit.  Also an order to withdraw one suit of service dress and 1 pair of boots from (base kit of) each man of the Expeditionary Force and return to AO Depot.  

Mobilization of Battalion completed about 3:00 pm, vacancies caused by party proceeding to Depot being filled by men slightly under age.

 

1st Bn Wiltshire Regt War Diary 8th Aug 1914.  

4th day of mobilization.  Mobilization completed at 6:30 pm with exception of Officers to complete establishment, which today reduced by 1 Captain and 2 Subalterns

 

QED.

 

There are scores of examples of this type of diary entry fro the BEF. MG

 

 

Edited 30 December , 2017 by Guest

[Muerrisch]

On 12/29/2017 at 08:47, QGE said:

Subalterns are commissioned* officers below the rank of Captain

 

There was nothing uniform in the British Army; there are inevitably exceptions. In The Royal Horse Guards (the Blues) a Second Lieutenant was known as a Cornet during the Great War, and after. I believe the term is still used in the Blues and Royals. It was in my day. MG

 

* King's Commissions or Queen's Commissions. The term would not apply to an (Hon) Lt QM

 

That is an interesting distinction, as I believe that QM commissions also came from the Sovereign. The distinguishing nature for QM commissions [and Riding masters and Bandmasters] was that they were not combatant. That is not to assert that QMs were referred to or classified as, subalterns. 

 

[Ian Riley]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

 

That is an interesting distinction, as I believe that QM commissions also came from the Sovereign. The distinguishing nature for QM commissions [and Riding masters and Bandmasters] was that they were not combatant. That is not to assert that QMs were referred to or classified as, subalterns. 

 

God help the senior subaltern who tried to assume any authority over the QM, other than by the most tactful means! Montgomery, in his autobiography, recalls being 'interviewed' by THE Senior Subaltern on joining his battalion in India in 1908 and bemoans the fact that the (unofficial) position had greatly diminished in prestige (by 1958). Before WW1, with eight companies commanded by captains (or a major), the senior subaltern was probably much older than his equivalent today

Edited 30 December , 2017 by Ian Riley

[Ron Clifton]

2 hours ago, Old Tom said:

From the back of my mind,  somewhere,  commissioned officers are either subaltern, field or general. If that is so and there is no doubt that majors are field officers; captains are subalterns.

Commissioned officers are either general, field or company officers. The last category includes captains and subalterns.

 

Ron

[rolt968]

Were 2 Lieutenant and Lieutenants of the Indian Army classed as subalterns?

RM

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

That is an interesting distinction, as I believe that QM commissions also came from the Sovereign. The distinguishing nature for QM commissions [and Riding masters and Bandmasters] was that they were not combatant. That is not to assert that QMs were referred to or classified as, subalterns. 

 

 

Despite both types of commission coming from (signed by) the Sovereign, they were different. The wording on the commission did not and does not mention "combatant". They were different types of commission. QMs were never classed as Subalterns. During the Great War period their commissions were Honorary, and after the war (I don't know the exact transition point) they were no longer Honorary but substantive, however they were different from other commissions. 

 

The evidence is in the many thousands of entries in the Army Lists and the London Gazette which separated QM commissions and promotions from the rest of the Regimental commissions. MG. 

 

[Muerrisch]

Martin we disagree only in that I assert that it is the QMs rank that was Hon, not his commission.

If this were not so he would need a new commission with every promotion, clearly nonsensical.

The practical effect of Hon was precisely to distinguish him from those wearing the same ranking who were trained and authorised to command troops in combat.

Prior to 1914 QMs in some regiments were not full Mess members, with restricted dining and access rights.

 

[Ron Clifton]

14 hours ago, rolt968 said:

Were 2 Lieutenant and Lieutenants of the Indian Army classed as subalterns?

RM

If they were British officers, yes. If they were Indian officers, they would be subedars/subadars or jemadars, normally promoted from the ranks and carrying (I think) a Viceroy's commission rather than one from the King. If there was a need to refer to them collectively, then "Indian officer" was probably used rather than "subaltern".

 

Ron

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Martin we disagree only in that I assert that it is the QMs rank that was Hon, not his commission.

If this were not so he would need a new commission with every promotion, clearly nonsensical.

The practical effect of Hon was precisely to distinguish him from those wearing the same ranking who were trained and authorised to command troops in combat.

Prior to 1914 QMs in some regiments were not full Mess members, with restricted dining and access rights.

 

 Fine..but are we in furious agreement that a QM's commission was different? If for example all Officers were killed except the Hon Capt QM and a 2nd Lt, the latter would take command of the shattered remains of the battalion. Not to be confused with beng commissioned from the ranks with a Temporary commission. 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

If they were British officers, yes. If they were Indian officers, they would be subedars/subadars or jemadars, normally promoted from the ranks and carrying (I think) a Viceroy's commission rather than one from the King. If there was a need to refer to them collectively, then "Indian officer" was probably used rather than "subaltern".

 

Ron

 

I would generally agree. To confuse matters further some Indians held King's commissions (rare in 1914). Also Gurkhas and Garhwalis were known as Gurkha Officers and Garhwali Officers not Indian Officers. I have Also seen Sikh Officer used in War Diaries although I am farly sure this was not official nomenclature

 

For the Infantry:

Subadar Major

Subadar

Jemadar

[rolt968]

1 hour ago, Ron Clifton said:

If they were British officers, yes. If they were Indian officers, they would be subedars/subadars or jemadars, normally promoted from the ranks and carrying (I think) a Viceroy's commission rather than one from the King. If there was a need to refer to them collectively, then "Indian officer" was probably used rather than "subaltern".

 

Ron

Thanks Ron

 

I should have been clearer. I meant those holding King's Commissions. I asked because the status ( and function) of 2 Lieutenants and Lieutenants in the Indian Army was different and higher in the chain of command.

RM

[Muerrisch]

4 hours ago, QGE said:

 Fine..but are we in furious agreement that a QM's commission was different? If for example all Officers were killed except the Hon Capt QM and a 2nd Lt, the latter would take command of the shattered remains of the battalion. Not to be confused with beng commissioned from the ranks with a Temporary commission. 

 

Furious agreement ......... whereas KR are not very helpful, the Pay Warrant refers to "commissed as QM or Riding master" as a separate species. In practice the entry grade was Hon Lt, although whether this was custom of the service or directed I have not been able to dig out. Such a man with "a good war" made Hon Major by 1919, with Hon Lt Col available.

[rflory]

Muerrisch wrote: "The distinguishing nature for QM commissions [and Riding masters and Bandmasters] was that they were not combatant. That is not to assert that QMs were referred to or classified as, subalterns."

 

Are you sure this is correct?  I have the group of five medals to Major and Riding Master C E Caddington and his 1914-15 Star, BWM and VM are all named to him as "R.M. & Capt." During the Great War he served as Adjutant of 62 Brigade and then became Officer Commanding C Battery, 62 Brigade, RFA - surely both are combatant positions.

 

[Muerrisch]

6 minutes ago, rflory said:

Muerrisch wrote: "The distinguishing nature for QM commissions [and Riding masters and Bandmasters] was that they were not combatant. That is not to assert that QMs were referred to or classified as, subalterns."

 

Are you sure this is correct?  I have the group of five medals to Major and Riding Master C E Caddington and his 1914-15 Star, BWM and VM are all named to him as "R.M. & Capt." During the Great War he served as Adjutant of 62 Brigade and then became Officer Commanding C Battery, 62 Brigade, RFA - surely both are combatant positions.

 

 

Very interesting indeed. I am never sure, not with matters military.

 

However, I have a parallel of sorts to offer, and then some comments.

 

RQMS Cottrill [or Cottrell ..... some uncertainty]1st RWF was promoted in the field in the immediate aftermath of the carnage of 1st Ypres. This was not a QM commission, he was not an Hon Lt, but a 2Lt on the 2Lts seniority roll. However, the post of QM had fallen vacant, so it was a no-brainer to order an ex-RQMS to do the job, Subsequently he relinquished QM for a while and commanded a rifle company.

 

Perhaps the clue is that your Riding Master was not an Hon captain but a captain, and perhaps he was a regimental combatant captain appointed RM, much as in Cottrill's case.

 

When I can stir my stumps I will look at RA and cavalry Army Lists to see if the majority of RMs, like the great majority of QMs, held Hon rank.

[Muerrisch]

Curioser and curioser.

 

I have the full August 1914 Army List. 

 

In passing, I was surprised to find bandmasters not on the regimental ists,  other than Directors of Music of the Household troops, horse and foot.

 

Taking the cavalry first, QMs and RMs when listed [the listings are surprisingly patchy and inconsistent] are placed below all other oficers and are all of Hon rank.

 

The RA listings end with a list of RMs, all of whom are indeed Hon. There are two Caddingtons, TGA, a major, and CE, a captain.

 

My searches in KR and the Pay Warrant refer many times to "combatant" officers, but do not adequately define that status. There are, of course, other grey areas like brevet rank, never defined but fully understood by those who needed to know. The army moved in mysterious ways, its wonders to perform.

 

War Establishments of infantry and cavalry [from memory] do not include bandmasters or riding masters, but retain QMs.