Two Ottoman officers in the Vosges in May-June 1918

[David Filsell]

I can add nothing to this thread, other than say what a terrific collaborative work. Thanks guys.

[GreyC]

Feldbahn-Amt /Feldbahnamt Habsheim see:

https://www.gda.bayern.de/findmitteldb/Archivalie/345524/

	Tätigkeitsbericht des Feldbahn-Maschinenamts Habsheim for 1918 For Vermessungs-Abteilung 13: https://www2.landesarchiv-bw.de/ofs21/olf/struktur.php?bestand=5735&klassi=001.001.003&anzeigeKlassi=001.001.001&letztesLimit=unbegrenzt&baumSuche=&standort=   Ma Bü 28 and explicitly 29       GreyC

Edited 8 February , 2019 by GreyC

[trajan]

12 hours ago, JulianR said:

I would translate Kleinbahn as narrow gauge, Benzol train I think means an locomotive using petrol (benzine) as fuel, 

 

Thanks Julian - I agree. I do need to revise my translations!

 

Julian

[trajan]

11 hours ago, JulianR said:

Map scale is 1:50,000 and I am fairly sure that Amt in German means an Office, more I think in terms of an organisation rather than necessarily a physical one, so we have some sort of area office.

 

Julian

 

I am thinking Feldbahn Amt and so 'Field railway office'...? I think it is on one of the maps - I'll try to check later, my turn to supervise and taxi-service for our two boys! 

 

EDIT 1: And DavidF, yes, indeed, superb input from so many individuals here has really helped!

 

EDIT 2: Ah, I see GreyC got it - post 202... Should have caught up with all these posts as they came in!

Edited 9 February , 2019 by trajan

[eisenbahn.tv]

The Germans differd three types of railways:

"Vollbahn": standard gaugae railway

"Kleinbahn" or "Feldbahn" (sometines "Feldeisenbahn") narrow gauge railway - with locomotive traction

"Förderbahn": narrow gauge railway with man or horse (donkey, ox) traction.

 

Sometimes "Kleinbahn" is used for already existing narrow gauage railway, and "Feldbahn" for newly constructed light railways for military use...

 

Regards Gabriel

Edited 9 February , 2019 by eisenbahn.tv

[JulianR]

I passed on a link to this thread to various of my railway friends and have had a comprehenisive answer from one.

 

Vollbahn means simply a full-scale railway, i.e. standard gauge; Kleinbahn means either a minor railway to standard gauge (built with lighter rails, lighter infrastructure, for slower speeds - we would say a Light Railway ) -  or a small-scale railway - as we know small-scale refers not just to the gauge of the track but to the size of the locos and rolling stock. Feldbahn means a railway built ''in the field'' either for agricultural or (later) military purposes, designed to be short-term and is of course almost always narrow-gauge - here 70cm rather than 60cm. . So that reference to a three-rail section means that there was a standard gauge line with a narrow gauge line either inside it or using - as in this case - using one of the rails which means that when the n.g. diverged one of the s,g. rails had to have either an opening cut in or (more likely) the n.g. somehow climbed up and over with a removeable section. At one point the translator uses 'third rail section' but this is misleading for English readers as it normally implies for us a third electrified rail; here it simply means a section of track where they have laid a narrow.-gauge rail inside the standard gauge ones (like a part fo the Vivarais line at Tournon) to save building a new alignment at great effort.

 

That 4w petrol (or Benzol) loco by the fountain is I think an Oberursel (this is a town north-west of Frankfurt/Main) Feldbahn loco. Schienanfahrzeug is simply a railway motive power item, Kraftfahrzeug a road equivalent, so we could think of a motorised trolley perhaps, and a motor car.

 

To the Ottoman officer: Hicaz means what we would write Hejaz or Hedjaz.

 

Do not overlook that at this period in summer 1918 there was a vast cooperation on railway matters between the Germans and the Ottomans, German compressed-air locos were working n.g. through the incompleted tunnels in the Taurus and Amanus mountains, German railway troops were also in Palestine and Syria. So it would be quite in order for a delegation of Engineering officers to be shown the latest uses and machinery that had been developed - cable cars, internal-combustion locos, loading equipment, etc. - to handle logistics, troop movements, access to timber or minerals etc. The Germans had been in the Vosges some time by now and had clearly built some substantial railways, not specifically for short-term combat purposes,  of which they were justifiably proud.  7m high 'Anschlussdämme' are connecting embankments rising to meet the canal bridge and represent some significant earth-moving and probably without machinery to help.

[eisenbahn.tv]

slightly off topic: I've got old photographs of a German engineer taken in the 1930s showing the construction of the Railway Kütahya - Balikesir. Made a audio slideshow:

 

slideshow at Youtube

 

Gabriel

[egbert]

Today, 10.7.19, the Tour de France rides most of  the above locations of former narrow gauge RR to include Schlettstadt (Selestal) , Drei Ähren (Trois Epis) and the Donon RR.

Great heli aerials to be expected!!!!!!

[egbert]

And of course tomorrow, 10.7., the classic high mountain warfare helicopter aerials from Hartmannsweiler into the Linthal where some of this threads' aerial cablecars departed. A must see 

Edited 11 July , 2019 by egbert

[Guest ehretth]

Hello everybody,

I discovered the topic only recently, sorry for coming only now. Many thanks to Julian/Trajan for sharing the excellent pictures, and to the contributors who gave explanations. I am living in Alsace so I know most of the places mentioned. I am dealing with WW1 searches since many years also. I started publishing on german narrow gauge military railways in 1987, after the pioneer J. Joseph (Lordonbahn), specially on Sulzerbahn and Lauchbahn. Since months I am working on a future volume of the series of Dr. J. Kraus upon organization of the imperial German army, dealing with railway troops.

First, I can indicate that the northern railway net, among others the Lordonbahn, belonged only approx. one year the Armee-Abteilung B, hence Kodeis B, in 1917. Then it came back to Armee-Abteilung A. So the pictures in the album have been taken prior to the 1918 visit. The REBK 16 came only at the beginning of the summer 1918 to Alsace. It can match with the visit but no more with Kodeis B, as it was Kodeis A.

There were close links between the German railway organization and the Ottoman one. Among others the REBK 16 was attached to the Bvg. Konstantinopel, means the upper commanding German railway officer in Istanbul, between September and December 1916. 

I have a picture of Ottoman officers visiting the Hartmannsweilerkopf, I do not know if it has been posted elsewhere on the forum.

Regards,

Thierry

[historics trains]

On 22/09/2020 at 14:38, Guest ehretth said:

Bonjour tout le monde,

Je n'ai découvert le sujet que récemment, désolé de venir seulement maintenant. Un grand merci à Julian/Trajan pour le partage des excellentes photos, et aux contributeurs qui ont donné des explications. Je vis en Alsace donc je connais la plupart des lieux cités. Je m'occupe également des recherches de la Première Guerre mondiale depuis de nombreuses années. J'ai commencé à publier sur les chemins de fer militaires allemands à voie étroite en 1987, après le pionnier J. Joseph (Lordonbahn), spécialement sur Sulzerbahn et Lauchbahn. Depuis des mois, je travaille sur un futur volume de la série du Dr J. Kraus sur l'organisation de l'armée impériale allemande, traitant des troupes ferroviaires.

Tout d'abord, je peux indiquer que le réseau ferroviaire du nord, entre autres le Lordonbahn, n'appartenait qu'à env. une année, l'Armee-Abteilung B, d'où Kodeis B, en 1917. Puis elle est revenue à l'Armee-Abteilung A. Les photos de l'album ont donc été prises avant la visite de 1918. Le REBK 16 ne vint qu'au début de l'été 1918 en Alsace. Ça peut correspondre à la visite mais pas plus à Kodeis B, comme c'était Kodeis A.

Il y avait des liens étroits entre l'organisation ferroviaire allemande et ottomane. Entre autres, le REBK 16 était rattaché au Bvg. Konstantinopel, désigne le commandant supérieur des chemins de fer allemands à Istanbul, entre septembre et décembre 1916. 

J'ai une photo d'officiers ottomans visitant le Hartmannsweilerkopf, je ne sais pas si elle a été postée ailleurs sur le forum.

Salutations,

Thierry

 

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I don't know if of any insight but a number of German Rail Companies served in Turkey

Eisenbahnsonderkommando and or Eisenbahn-Bau-Kompagnie (EBSK or EBBK)

Units from 3, 5, 6, 8  and 11 also 34/48, 44/48 and 69 I have on record as well as a number of named units

While I can find no unit as "REBK 16 was attached to the Bvg. Konstantinopel"

There was a Eisenbahn-Bau-Kompagnie 16 (ESBK 16), but not much on what it was doing

With the poor rail network in Turkey at that time, most not going where the fighting was going on, then small railways may have been a quick way of moving supplies around the country for limited periods.

S.B

[historics trains]

Bonjour à tous,

J'écris en français.

Je suis l'auteur d'un livre sur les trains forestiers et ou militaires ayant circulé dans les Vosges mosellanes et Bas-Rhinoises ;

En allant sur votre forum, j'ai découvert une similitude avec mes recherches que j'avais terminé en 2018. Mon ouvrage est sorti fin décembre 2018 édité à 300 exemplaires par la Société d'Histoire et d'Archéologie de Lorraine, section de Sarrebourg . Il me reste quelques exemplaires que je dédicacerai le 25 septembre 2022 lors de ma conférence à la Maison de la Forêt à Val et Chatillon 54, Meurthe et Moselle. Cette conférence traitera justement des résultats de mes recherches sur les trains forestiers (Abrescviller, Schrimeck, Barr...) et des trains militaires (Lordonbahn, Eberhardtbahn, Hantzbahn...)

Votre Forum étant très illustré, je me permettrai de vous citer lors de cette conférence en donnant votre adresse du site.

Pour ceux qui seront sur place je serai heureux de dialoguer ensemble sur cette belle épopée, car la guerre de 1914-18 a commencé avec la bataille de Sarrebourg-Morhange entre le 18 et le 21 août 1914, défaite allemande le 18 août et défaite française le 21 août sur les hauteur du Donon, Vosges, côté mosellan et alsacien;

Bonne journée

Trains Historiques