Exhumations and reburial: James Hargreaves Morton

[Clear Bell]

Hi

 

Can anyone advise me about how to find the original site of the burial of soldier, James Hargreaves Morton (soldier no. 25401), who died in November 1918?

 

The CWGC info for concentration and reburials notes something like: 51033d51 or it could possibly be 51O33d51. After the war he was reburied In Pont-Sur-Sambre Communal Cemetery.

 

Thanks

[thetrenchrat22]

Sheet 51.  O. 33. d. 5. 1. 

 

Is the correct layout of reference given on the COB.  If you look at the internet and type in Trench Map.  Look at McMaster University , they breakdown into sheets 

 

also if you look for The Long Long Trail it has a section on how to read Trench Maps

[Phil Evans]

The problem is that Sheet 51 is off the scale on both McMasters and the National Library of Scotland sites.

Is there anything in the war diary? Higher level diaries (Brigade / Division) may have a map tucked in.

 

Phil

[Langdon]

 

Here's a McMasters map dated October 1918 - go to square O, 33.

 

The trench map co-ordinates 51.O.33.d.5.1 are converted here to 50.2345, 3.8233 (zoom in)

 

There's a detailed (but difficult to read) account (Appendix II p.258) in the 1/5th war diary on Ancestry under "Various (Infantry Bridages (sic) 42nd Division" - 126th Brigade.

Quickest way to the diary on Ancestry is to go to James H Morton 25401 in Soldiers Died in the Great War and click on the War Diaries link.

 

Mike

 

 

[Clear Bell]

Thanks for advice and how to read the co-ordinates - I have others I want to investigate apart from this soldier's so this is very useful.

 

Yes, I've been looking at the WD too - but it's very difficult to understand what was happening in the few days before and after his death. I am not sure what his original burial place will tell me but I suppose it's the completist thing - I keep seeing these co-ordinates and wanting to know more, however, minimal the information turns out to be.

 

 

[Phil Evans]

Mike,

 

How did you tease the McMasters map out, which I see comes up under "Original Collections"?

It is buried deep in the system.

 

Phil

[Howard]

This map may help, dated 3rd Nov 1918. Full version here.

It shows "localities of possible resistance" quite close to square O33.

Howard

 

[Keith Brannen]

 

The history of the 42nd Division gives a fairly good overview of what was happening prior to and after his death:

42 (East Lancashire) Division

Nov 3-11 starts at page 270 (of 328) in the above link.

Specifically, on November 6th it says of the 1/5th E. Lancs.:

"At 6.30 a.m. on the 6th - about three hours after the completion of the relief - the advance was resumed, with the 5th E. Lancs. on the right and the 8th Manchesters on the left. There could be little artillery support as the difficulties of movement through the vast expanse of the forest had increased with the continuous rain and the heavy traffic over the soft tracks, and though officers and men of the artillery brigades worked like heroes they could not accomplish the impossible. The 5th E. Lancs. gained their objective - the road running south from Les 5 Chemins and Hoisies Farm - after severe fighting and numerous casualties, inflicted mainly by the enemy machine-guns strongly posted in the neighbourhood of Hoisies Farm and, further south, in the orchards and gardens between Petit Bayay and the River Sambre."

 

All the above locations are on the McMasters map Langdon posted (post #4).

 

[familyhistoryman]

On 22/12/2017 at 19:57, Clear Bell said:

Hi

 

Can anyone advise me about how to find the original site of the burial of soldier, James Hargreaves Morton (soldier no. 25401), who died in November 1918?

 

The CWGC info for concentration and reburials notes something like: 51033d51 or it could possibly be 51O33d51. After the war he was reburied In Pont-Sur-Sambre Communal Cemetery.

 

Thanks

I was interested to see that you have an interest in James Hargreaves Morton of Darwen Are you aware that The Friends of Darwen Library published a book (2013) on his life which contain some drawings he did when in France. The book in out of print but there are copies in Darwen and Blackburn Libraries as well as Fulwood Barracks Museum 

Tony

 

  

Edited 24 December , 2017 by familyhistoryman

[Clear Bell]

Hi

 

Yes, I've read the book.

 

It's very interesting to see the sketches/paintings he made during military service with the support of a commanding officer or two - although only one reproduced in the book suggests the war was going on - it's a sketch of Sand Hill Camp in Wiltshire.

 

The details about his war service are interesting, and I presume much was gleaned from private papers as the information from the usual sources is fairly basic and takes some unpicking. And, of course, as the book makes clear, Morton's own service records no longer exist.

[Clear Bell]

9 hours ago, Keith Brannen said:

 

The history of the 42nd Division gives a fairly good overview of what was happening prior to and after his death:

42 (East Lancashire) Division

Nov 3-11 starts at page 270 (of 328) in the above link.

Specifically, on November 6th it says of the 1/5th E. Lancs.:

"At 6.30 a.m. on the 6th - about three hours after the completion of the relief - the advance was resumed, with the 5th E. Lancs. on the right and the 8th Manchesters on the left. There could be little artillery support as the difficulties of movement through the vast expanse of the forest had increased with the continuous rain and the heavy traffic over the soft tracks, and though officers and men of the artillery brigades worked like heroes they could not accomplish the impossible. The 5th E. Lancs. gained their objective - the road running south from Les 5 Chemins and Hoisies Farm - after severe fighting and numerous casualties, inflicted mainly by the enemy machine-guns strongly posted in the neighbourhood of Hoisies Farm and, further south, in the orchards and gardens between Petit Bayay and the River Sambre."

 

All the above locations are on the McMasters map Langdon posted (post #4).

 

Thanks very much for this. And after looking at Langdon's post, I thnk the location of Morton's original burial is at this road side too, but will double check this.

[familyhistoryman]

18 hours ago, Clear Bell said:

Hi

 

Yes, I've read the book.

 

It's very interesting to see the sketches/paintings he made during military service with the support of a commanding officer or two - although only one reproduced in the book suggests the war was going on - it's a sketch of Sand Hill Camp in Wiltshire.

 

The details about his war service are interesting, and I presume much was gleaned from private papers as the information from the usual sources is fairly basic and takes some unpicking. And, of course, as the book makes clear, Morton's own service records no longer exist.

Glad you have seen the book as I was involved with some of the research. What is your interest in Morton

Tony

[Clear Bell]

On 25/12/2017 at 07:57, familyhistoryman said:

Glad you have seen the book as I was involved with some of the research. What is your interest in Morton

Tony

Am writing online memorial to former RCA students who served and died. I think I recognise your name now but I don't have the book to hand. Did you particularly research and write the section on Morton's military service?

[familyhistoryman]

27 minutes ago, Clear Bell said:

Am writing online memorial to former RCA students who served and died. I think I recognise your name now but I don't have the book to hand. Did you particularly research and write the section on Morton's military service?

My main involvement was researching Morton’s finance but I also researched some of his Darwen (my hometown) life. I also went through the local newspapers. I think it was in 1915 whilst he was doing some paints in the Lake District he was arrested as the local police thought he was a spy. I my currently visiting my daughter in Gernany so cannot access my files. 

If you can contact me offline I can but you in contact with Harold Heys, the editor of the book

Tony Foster

tonyfoster@fastmail.co.uk

Edited 27 December , 2017 by familyhistoryman

[Langdon]

On 23/12/2017 at 16:56, Phil Evans said:

Mike,

 

How did you tease the McMasters map out, which I see comes up under "Original Collections"?

It is buried deep in the system.

 

Phil

 

Type in Sheet no. 51 in the Search box and 'Hautmont 51' should appear..

Mike

Edited 27 December , 2017 by Langdon

[Clear Bell]

4 hours ago, familyhistoryman said:

My main involvement was researching Morton’s finance but I also researched some of his Darwen (my hometown) life. I also went through the local newspapers. I think it was in 1915 whilst he was doing some paints in the Lake District he was arrested as the local police thought he was a spy. I my currently visiting my daughter in Gernany so cannot access my files. 

If you can contact me offline I can but you in contact with Harold Heys, the editor of the book

Tony Foster

tonyfoster@fastmail.co.uk

Ok. Will use your personal email (?) when I get back to work next week. I think I may already have been in contact with Harold about this but am not absolutely sure. Here is a link to the online memorial me and colleagues have set up: http://remembrance.rca.ac.uk/

His being thought a spy is a great story- but must have been very alarming at the time.

Best

[Clear Bell]

On 23/12/2017 at 18:11, Howard said:

This map may help, dated 3rd Nov 1918. Full version here.

It shows "localities of possible resistance" quite close to square O33.

 

Howard

 

 

Many thanks for this. Useful to compare with shapes in the landscape from Google maps too - so with everyone's help I think Morton's original burial can be pointed. Best.