Bertie Sands mm 13873 8th Norfolks

[arantxa]

 

  Hello

im trying to research Bertie Sands 8th Norfolks  his mm was gazetted 11/11/16 but from what i can gather by August he had been invalided out ..i dont know much about the 8th Norfolks i believe a kitchener out fit..does any one have any info or any ideas when he got his mm  ie what for ive also got a presenation flask that sayes for b sands 8th Norfolks on geeting his mm  dated 16/09/1917 from his friens..any help would be gratefully recieved

sorry 13783

Edited 15 December , 2017 by arantxa

[HolymoleyRE]

Hi,

 

I presume you have seen this?

 

http://greatwar.nibchg.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/SANDS-Bertie.pdf

 

Also attached is the exceprt from the daily wounded list 3rd July 1916 from the Times confirming the June wounding.

 

Andy

[HolymoleyRE]

Judging by the date of the Gazetting, my educated guess looking at the War Diary of the 8th Btn Norfolks, it would have during the action on Schwaben Redoubt in early October (indeed it could have been during an action in Sept too). The Btn were also notably in action in an assualt on Regina Trench in late October, but to me that is too close to the Gazetting date.

 

Thoughts GWF Pals?

Edited 15 December , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[arantxa]

Thank you  that is so very helpful  is it worth me downloading the war diary if it exsists..i couldnt understand why the the cigarette case says presented  to L Cpl B SANDS 8TH NORFOLK REGT  BY FRINDS IN HONOUR of having the mm sept 1917  but in above link says he was given it in a presentation in 1918

so  he was wounded in June   was hospitalised luckily missed july 1st  went back then wounded again

[arantxa]

[HolymoleyRE]

If you access to Ancestry it is already on there, and is available to download from the National Archives for £3.50, it makes interesting reading if he is relative or indeed you are researching the Btn/H

him.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7352991

 

The article is dated 1918, but the presentation was made in Dec 1917, may well have been a case of hand the cigarette cases back in so the General can give you them back sketch.....

 

Andy

Edited 15 December , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[arantxa]

I’ve been gven the medals and the cigarette case and wanted to know a bit about it

 

[HolymoleyRE]

You are in luck, his Service Records are on FindMyPast.....

[HolymoleyRE]

It would appear the Medal must have been earnt before the 16th August 1916....as he was returned to England by that date, and never returned to France before his discharge in Dec 1916.

[arantxa]

Hello so if he was wounded in June would he have gone back into action and then was wounded again and sent home 16 august 1916 so June would have only been a slight wound were all wounds out in the  times. Then he must have won the mm between these dates

[HolymoleyRE]

It would suggest that, to be wounded in June and sent back to England in mid August seems a long time...plus the WD for May and June 1916 doesn't give too much away to suggest an MM action.

[arantxa]

What would you suggest in your opinion

[HolymoleyRE]

I have to say it has me a little puzzled, in June 16 the 8th Btn do come under Artillery Shelling, Trench Mortar and Machine Gun Fire, but no mention of any casualties.  Other than July 1916, they 8th Btn don't seem to record casulties May, Jun or Aug....So a wounding in June is still possible hence the Times entry (to be honest I am not an expert as to what criteria warranted entry onto the War Office lists that fed the Times).  But as his record's indicate he was still in France until August 1916, then he must have recovered and gone back to the Front.

 

August also is relatively incident free, so my theory he is wounded again in July 1916 and this also when his MM was awarded....but only a theory.

 

Andy

 

 

 

Edited 15 December , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[arantxa]

Thank you 

[arantxa]

8th Norfolks I wondered if anything  had come to light since my last posting

[mancpal]

Have you found anything?

 

Simon

[PRC]

On 15/12/2017 at 14:44, HolymoleyRE said:

 

Also attached is the exceprt from the daily wounded list 3rd July 1916 from the Times confirming the June wounding.

 

 

 

Looking at the Casualty List from The Times, Private 15685 G.W Cooke, has surviving service records. Originally attested in the 8th Battalion, he received a G.S.W. Left Thigh & Leg 3rd June 1916. All his treatment was in France and he rejoined the Battalion on the 6th July 1916.

 

There are also surviving service records for 16088 Edgar Robert Smith. He too started out with the 8th Battalion. He received a G.S.W left shoulder June 1916. By the 9th June he had been moved on to the strength of the Depot – probably for pay and admin purposes as I suspect he was receiving long term treatment in the UK.

 

War Diary Entry 3rd June 1916.

Bray. Battalion proceeded to A.2. Sub-sector, North of Carnoy.

3 p.m. About 20, 4.2 and 5.9 shells fell round the kitchen and water tanks.

 

The service records for Bertie Sands includes correspondence to an address in the village of Neatishead, Norfolk. The nearest town to Neatishead would be Wroxham, which probably explains why in the local news for Wroxham which appeared in the edition of the Norfolk Chronicle dated 7th July 1916 there is a simple one liner “Lce.-Corpl. B.Sands, of the Norfolk Regiment, has been wounded.”

I don’t appear to have come across anything as yet in the local press about the presentation.

 

Appendix 1 to the Battalion War Diary for November 1916 simply totals up the the medal awards for service on the Somme and Ancre.

 

It lumps together actions on the 1st July at Montauban and the 19th July at Delville Wood. It shows 4 Military Medals awarded to N.C.O.’s and 3 to other ranks. The next medals were awarded for actions in September and as Bertie was already back in the UK by them I believe they can be ruled out.

 

I think Le Petres Regimental History may have more details but unfortunately I no longer have access.

 

The part of the list of awards including the name of Bertie is on Page 10930 to the Supplement to the London Gazette, 11 November 1916.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29819/supplement/10930/data.pdf

One potential route is to check the whole list and see if the total and mix for the Norfolks tallies back to the numbers in the War Diary appendix.

 

I suspect the award is more likely to to refer to the action on the 1st July. The 8th Norfolk and 6th Royal Berkshire of the 53rd Brigade, 18th (Eastern) Division, were two of a very small number of Kitchener units that took and held their objectives on that day and so they came in for a great deal of praise and recognition. The entry in the War Diary is quite long, but there is an even lengthier lessons learned piece by the commanding officer covering the Battalions activities from the 1st to the 3rd.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

[arantxa]

Thank you so much for your help