A medallic conundrum waiting for GWF wallahs

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear GWFs,

Major Thomas Kershaw Gaskell (1870-1934) - IA since 1892 - apparently saw Active Service in France 1915-16, yet only his BWM is confirmed on the MIC. 

What is more, his Durbar 1911 is not confirmed on the Duckers Roll (although that of his younger brother, is).

Can some erudite Great War Forum member possibly cast some light on the shadows, please?

Kindest regards,

Kim. 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All,

To add some pieces to the puzzle, here is a slightly better scan of the Gaskell medal rims - and his 1915 and 1917 entries in the Indian Army List.

What do you make of it all?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Jim Strawbridge]

In my humble opinion I feel that the 1914/5 star naming is not quite right. I would have expected it to read 91/PUNJABIS if issued contemporarily. It may be a late strike with a different generation of engravers although the MIC does not suggest this. Additionally, the victory medal has had 91st Punjabis added and I suspect that the BWM has similarly. However the style of the rest of the naming on the BWM and victory seems ok.

[Medaler]

Hi Kim,

 

Hope you are keeping well.

 

It might just be me, because it is hard to judge from that first picture, but the 14-15 Star looks a bit "thin". Having said that, the reverse view of the ring, on what I will call picture 3, does not show any signs of flattening. I was wondering if it had been skimmed, but you will be a much better judge than I am. I have what I take to be an officially renamed example to a sailor where the whole back has been skimmed from the base of the crown downwards to the tip of the bottom of the lower point of the star.

 

Held so you can view the edge, is the back of your star perfectly flat from top to bottom? If it has been skimmed, if you can hold a straight edge against the back, you will see daylight between the lower tip and the crown.

 

That may be a complete red herring. Like I say, its hard to judge from the pictures.

 

The naming on the Durbar medal seems to match with other examples that I have seen, in those slightly sloping serif capitals. Lovely things those. I must get one for the collection one day!

 

Regards,

Mike

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Jim and Mike,

Many thanks for taking the trouble to respond. much appreciated!

Of course I am hoping to find an Image of T. K. Gaskell:-

perhaps a Fife newspaper Obituary from November 1934...?

Jim: I agree completely that 91/PUNJABIS would have been a contemporary impressed naming.

This particular style of impressing, reminds me of the Boots naming, offered by the chemist-chain of that name, for a small sum, after the Second War. 

The BWM to the Major was not only confirmed on his MIC and BWM/Victory roll for 91st Punjabis (Victory being crossed out on the roll featuring only Maj. Gaskell, 2Lt Forward and Capt Saxton!), but the impressed naming on his BWM is correct.

In contrast, the Victory seems to have been another Boots job - the space between rank and name, and regiment being most unusual!

Mike: The 15 Star looks correct to me, but with Boots impressed naming. The prestigious auction-house called it 'later engraved naming'. 

The Durbar 1911 seems to be 'contemporarily engraved naming', the only flaw being his non-appearance on the Duckers roll (which, irritatingly, includes Tom Gaskell's younger brother!).

It has been suggested that, despite the MIC stating clearly 'France 1915-16', his entitlement was a BWM, the others being add-ons. This clearly would not do in Regimental circles, but perhaps he felt entitled to them.

The Boots thought,  suggests having been done after his death in 1934. His widow, Jean Helen Gaskell, nee Rintoul, many have had the idea. She certainly made sure that his headstone with imposing cross, plus stained-glass windows dedicated to Lt-Col Gaskell, in the Largo Church, Fife, remained as a lasting memorial...

Kindest regards,

Kim-

Edited 15 December , 2017 by Kimberley John Lindsay

[Guest]

If one traces him back through the Quarterly Indian Army Lists, he seems to be listed as Lv ex I m.c [date] which as I am sure you know means Leave ex India, medical certificate. He was initially in this category to November 1914 in April 1914 i.e. at the beginning of the War he was ex Indian (and probably in England). As you know Kitchener prevented most Indian Officers on leave in the UK from returning to their regiments. The 91st Punjabis were not in the first line of mobilization to my knowledge, so it seems highly likely that he was in the UK and remained there.

 

As you know the Indian Army Officers were used to stiffen the Officer ranks of K1 and K2 as well as providing key members of newly formed Staff from Brigade level upwards. He was annotated (Q) meaning he was "Qualified in  tactical fitness for command" at a time when trained Officers were rather short on the ground. If he was medically unfit at the start of the war and recovered later (his dates for Medical Certificate keep extending in the Indian Army List), he may well have recovered sufficiently to go to France in some role in 1915. My speculation.

 

Given his language skills, it is possible he was sent to a staff position in the IEF-A in 1915, but one needs to be mindful dozens in similar positions ended up in the British Army in staff roles. One possibility is that he simply had a mundane job in the rear with the gear in a Base Depot or port and may be even more difficult to find. A needle in a haystack.

 

He is certainly not attached to  any British Infantry regiment in May 1915 as I have trawled the volumes for IA Officers many moons ago. He is siimply listed under 91 Punjabis and the Indian Army. I would put this as a 'not before date'.

 

Have you tried searching the London Gazette as some appointments were gazetted.

 

MG

 

 

Edited 15 December , 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

Dec 1915 Army List shows him "Empl Ind Mil Depot"

 

Edit. The fist mention of him being employed elsewher is in the Aug 1915 Army List showing him "Empl Ind Mil Depot" . If this was in France I think it likely to be either Marseille or Orleans. Not sure if Marseille wallahs qualified for the 1914 or 1914-15 Star which might explain him not being on the roll and him possibly taking the view that he believed it was in a theatre of war.

 

I believe some of the Accrington Pals awadred themselves the 1914-15 Star as they missed the cut-off date by a day. 

 

My instinct are that he didn't qualify for the Star and this is a self awarded medal. It has to be  a distinct possibility.   MG

Edited 15 December , 2017 by Guest

[jimmy4174]

Hi Kim,

That's an interesting group of medals with a story to tell, I'd like to see the full naming on his Delhi Durbar, It's fairley obvious his star is wrong and also his victory medal, on the victory you can see the rounded shape of the edge which usually means it's been renamed. I notice he was a bit of a guy in the early 1900's being pursued for breach of promise and also he's listed as a Lieutenant Colonel when he died in 1934, Was He??? I suppose he perhaps thought he would beef up his group a wee bit and add a 14/15 star and victory at least? He obviously thought he was entitled to the medals and mounted them for wear, only he could tell us why???

 

Cheers

Jimmy

[Guest]

Indian Military Base Depot was at Marseille at least until March 1915. Click

 

I cant yet find the diary for April 1915 onward but I would be amazed if it moved as Indian reinforcements continued to enter via Marseille. If he was posted to the Depot I think he was in Marseille, some distance from the sound of guns.... 

 

MG

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All plus QCE and Jimmy,

Super input!

Many thanks, indeed from this Aussie.

Jimmy: Could you possibly attach the 'early 1900s breach of promise' snippet (just the sort of stuff for my manuscript!), please?

And, yes, he was a Major when he retired but granted the rank of Lt-Col.

MG: I do not have the IA Lists you so cleverly found: namely listing Gaskell as 'Employed Indian Military Base Depot' (Marseilles). This was an excellent clue to his 1915 Service, and would seem to make sense of the 'France 1915-16' entry, for example.

I am in agreement with the theory that he was officially awarded the BWM, but felt he deserved the 15 Trio (and possibly the Delhi Durbar 1911, too: which his younger brother R. W. Gaskell was awarded, as Capt., 9th Bhopal Infantry). 

Anybody suggestions for an Image?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

 

 

[charlie2]

Kim,

The LG records that he was restored to the active list from the temporary half pay list from 11.10.1916.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29870/page/12351/data.pdf

 

Charlie

[jimmy4174]

Hi Kim,

I've found a short obituary, his will and an article on his Bankrupcy and breach of promise?

Cheers

Jimmy

[charlie962]

IA List 1933 has an asterisk against his name saying granted next higher rank on retirement. He is shown as Major, 19/10/19 and retiring 24/6/20 so I read this as LtCol from that date. Is that correct?

                  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

 

MG: I do not have the IA Lists you so cleverly found: namely listing Gaskell as 'Employed Indian Military Base Depot' (Marseilles). This was an excellent clue to his 1915 Service, and would seem to make sense of the 'France 1915-16' entry, for example.

 

Indian Army Lists https://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Indian_Army_List_online

Army Lists http://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/88735803

 

Curious to know if the auction house that sold these medals has a view. Seems reasonably easy to establish there is no recorded entitlement to the 1914-15 Star or VM. The fact that the VM is very clearly deleted seems to have passed them by. Publicly available info for anyone with Ancestry. The issue of the BWM for overseas service but not the Victory medal or the 1914-15 Star fits perfectly if Marseille was not considered in the theatre of war. In the rear with the gear.....

 

I once bought an item from a reputed auction house. Three years later I put it into their auction to sell and was told it was a fake. I had about 20 other items in the auction and said nothing. After the auction I showed them their own provenance on the item and never dealt with them again. MG

 

Edited 15 December , 2017 by Guest

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and Jimmy,

Trust the Great War Forum members to not only come up with the right ideas (Marseille), but an Obituary, too. Super!

Needless to say, he was something of a Cad (the word is no longer fashionable, yet says it all) - Miss Ricketts getting nothing, yet he managed to end up with twelve thousand plus!

Many thanks all round. Now all I need is that elusive photo (aka Image).

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[charlie962]

Kim,

Not relevant to your man above but more to your wider interest in Indian Army, I came across this on archive.org which you may or may not have seen?

                    

         Charlie                      

[charlie962]

Kim,

If you search for Gertrude Ricketts in the Newspaper archives you will find a lot of detail on her relationship with the 'fickle' Captain Gaskell ! Here is an introduction:

            

                       

 

Charlie 

[charlie962]

and Miss Ricketts never married..(Hastings Observer 24/12/1948)

[trajan]

14 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

... he was something of a Cad ...

 

A bit of a bounder also, methinks!

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, and especially Charlie,

Many thanks for what is developing into a fascinating story!

Super newspaper snippets which I, otherwise, would not have been able to access in a hundred years. Well done!

Needless to say, this somewhat makes up for the fact that only the Major Tom Gaskell British War Medal 1914-18 is pukka. The others (unless he appeared on another, long-lost, Delhi Durbar 1911 roll) being apparently self-awarded.  

Having said that, I have just today seen a document concerning the non-award of a Victory Medal to Capt A. W. Hill. The War Office refused to award the Victory, but granted Hill a BWM, on the grounds that, 'your service in France was of a temporary nature (etc,)...' After high-level intervention, the War Office eventually relented, incidentally.

Indeed, I would not be surprised if Gaskell, aside from his duties with the Indian Base Depot at Marseilles, was obliged to pay impromptu visits to the war zone in line with his routine work. (This may sound like wishful thinking, but it would be a reason for the wretched Gaskell to feel "short-changed", as it were.)

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[charlie962]

Kim, this link takes you to a NZ newspaper cutting which has a pretty representative article (free!). charlie

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear Charly,

Super! Absolutely priceless. I must admit that I am unclear who had to pay 1500 Pounds damages: he or she?

The promise of a Goodie still holds, of course.

Perhaps you can attach or beam that add-on to 'Cruel treatment', namely 'The Test Too Hard', please...?

Kindest regards,

Kim.

 

[trajan]

13 hours ago, Kimberley John Lindsay said:

... Super! Absolutely priceless. I must admit that I am unclear who had to pay 1500 Pounds damages: he or she?... 

 

That cad and bounder, and dare I say it? - and poltroon to boot!

[charlie962]

2 minutes ago, trajan said:

and poltroon to boot!

I had to look that word up. Chicken ? He picked the wrong girl to cross since she'd already extracted 1,000pounds off another cad 10 years earlier.

 

Just the sort of story to fill the world-wide gossip  columns of the day. Seeemingly even the New Zealand papers had nothing better to report ! Did the officers of the Indian Army have a worse reputation than the British Army ?

[trajan]

Well, perhaps poltroon was a bit strong as he may have made it to the front in his REMF service - but certainly a cad and bounder when it comes to his medals! And yes, the 'lady' does not come off much better... De mortuis nihil nisi bonum and all that - but!