Evacuation of wounded, Broodseinde 1917

[mancpal]

I am hoping that some of the members more knowledgable than I  on medical matters may be able to give their thoughts about the following.

My Grandfather  was injured at Broodseinde on 4th October 1917.

I have researched him quite extensively and frustratingly most of the medical section of his burnt  service record appears to have been lost. On a previous thread I tried to find out  how he would have  reached Colchester Military Hospital after injury. The general consensus then was in the absence of the medical section I could never  be certain of the route he may have taken (I can't seem to find previous thread but then again I'm a technological ignoramus). 

I had another thought ( clutching at straws type), did either the Anzacs or Canadian  armies keep records of casualties and would it have been possible that they  treated British soldiers?

If so where would I search for him?

Does anyone believe that searching soldiers from his platoon via service numbers on the slim chance that if they had survived that far that one of them had been injured in the same battle and who's medical papers still exist would be worth the time. Needles and Haystacks spring to mind !

The soldier concerned is Cpl Joseph Lamb, 21202, B Company, 7 platoon, 22nd Mcrs (7th Mcr Pals).

Unfortunately, I no longer have any subscriptions since becoming a working, widowed parent, also my time is severely limited in catering for my child's sporting events and all else that is entailed in running a household so I ask on this occasion if any members could spare a little time to share their thoughts I'd be very grateful.

 

simon

 

[MBrockway]

Do you know Division and Corps?

 

The Official History Medical Services Vol III has some detail on the casualty evacuation chain at Corps level.  Read Chapter VIII.

 

Likely to be too general for your immediate research, but it will give you some useful general pointers.

 

The volume is, I think, available online free of charge if you do some searching.

[mancpal]

Thanks for information. Off hand I don't know division and corps though I'm sure I'll have it at home.

 

simon

[MBrockway]

According to this map of the battle, it would be 7th Division, X Corps, Second Army.

 

 

The complication comes though when you find out that Second Army began to take over the southernmost battle sectors from Fifth Army in the later stages of 3rd Ypres (including Battle of Broodseinde) but continued using the Fifth Army medical evacuation chain that was set up for when those same geographical sectors had been under Fifth Army assault units.

 

You'll need to do some careful reading of Chapter VIII to unravel the likely route your chap would have followed.

 

OH Medical Services Vol III is here:

https://archive.org/stream/medicalservicesg03macp#page/n3/mode/2up

 

Chapter VIII begins on p.137

 

Good map facing p.138

 

 

 

Edited 14 December , 2017 by MBrockway

[brianmorris547]

Simon

I did a FMP service number check on your man but it only came back with his service record. No record of him on a casualty list nor in a Hospital Admissions Register (MH/106).

Brian

[mancpal]

Thanks for all the above, yet more detail to look into.

Brian, thanks for taking the time to look. I do know after his injury he arrived at Colchester and I have the date at home but I'm not there. I have 2 studio photos of him. The first is a proud young man in fresh uniform, the second shows the same man 2 yrs later sporting the "thousand mile stare" and minus most of a leg. Interestingly he wears 2 wound stripes on his tunic though I can't find what the first one was for.

 

 

simon

[BullerTurner]

He may have been wounded twice on that one occasion you are researching.a

[MBrockway]

38 minutes ago, BullerTurner said:

He may have been wounded twice on that one occasion you are researching.a

 

One wound stripe per occasion of wounding, not per wound ...

 

AO 204 of 6 July 1916

The following distinctions in dress will be worn on the service dress jacket by all officers and soldiers who have been wounded in any of the campaigns since 4 August, 1914:- 'Strips of gold Russia braid, No.1, two inches in length, sewn perpendicularly on the left sleeve of the jacket to mark each occasion on which wounded.'

 

So two wound stripes means two separate wounding incidents, each of which could have involved multiple actual wounds. 

 

Wounding included gassing and shell shock ...

 

ACI 2075 of 3 November 1916

'1.... the term "wounded" refers only to those officers and soldiers whose names have appeared or may hereafter appear in casualty lists rendered by the Adjutant General's office at a base overseas, or by the G.O.C. any force engaged in active operations. Reports in hospital lists are not to be regarded as authoritative for this purpose.

2. Officers and men reported "wounded - gas," or "wounded - shock, shell," are entitled to the distinction. Accidental or self-inflicted wounds or injuries do not qualify.'

 

There are quite a few related ACI's and AO's which cover minor refinements to the eligibilities etc.

[TEW]

He turns up on WO casualty list twice;

Daily List: 28th September 1916. Private J Lamb 21202, Manchester Regt.

Daily List: 14th November 1917 L/Cpl. J Lamb 21202, Manchester Regt.

 

There are no details of the injuries or what happened to him.

 

Certainly is a shame his Casualty/Service sheet is missing from his file. My method to work out how he was moved from front line back to the UK would be to trawl all the relevant diaries. That means at least the ones for 22/Mancs, 7/Div ADMS, 21, 22 & 23 field ambulances, X Corps DDMS and 2nd Army DMS. You could end up also looking at 91 Infantry Brigade, various CCS diaires and potentially some for Ambulance Trains, barges or Motor Ambulance Convoys. Some of these are free on Ancestry but I note the limitations you have for time.

 

I have the diaries for X Corps DDMS and 2nd Army at home and maybe some of the others. I'll see what they contain over the weekend.

 

If anyone else wants to look, the ADMS diary is WO95/1640/5.

 

I'll see how things progress over the weekend and re-post on Monday.

 

TEW

[mancpal]

TEW,

thank you for sparing  your time and knowledge. I've assumed that his 2nd wound is the loss of his leg, my dad doesn't remember the cause of the othèr one though thinks his dad had a "shrapnel wound". Without having any information to hand I think his regt was around the Somme in the summer of 1916 (he was at Fricourt/Mametz  on 1/7/16).

thanks again

 

Simon

[TEW]

Yes, the second wound would be the loss of his leg. First one, could be a July/August 1916 injury. The 22 Manchesters were in the thick of it 1/7/1916 and Lamb was with them at the time. No totals for Ordinary Ranks given but they had 10 Officers killed and 8 wounded on 1/7/1916 and had 434 reinforcements sent on the 10/7/1917.

 

As it happens I had more diaries at home than I thought. The medical arrangments for X Corps, 7th Division & 22 Manchesters is well documented and quite precisely laid down. I've just gleaned some more pages from 91 Infantry Brigade and 7 Division General Staff diaries. It should be fairly easy to say where the forming up line was and their objectives for 4/10/1917 and then explain the evacuation route for the wounded which is all set out in the various diaries.

 

Quite often there are variables as to where different types of wound were sent but it seems that all serious, lying & stretcher cases of X Corps were evacuated to the Godewaersvelde group of CCSs. These are nuumbers 11, 37 and 41. Unusually it seems that the CCSs were assigned to different divisions of X Corps so 7th Division men were admitted to 11 CCS.

 

I'll have to try and check through everything and hopefully re-post next week. Off hand there were in the region of 2600 wounded from X Corps admitted on 4/10/1917 and almost the same number the following day. They seem to have been quite efficient and no congestion of wounded occured and I think evacuations by Ambulance Trains from the CCSs is also noted. Exactly which one he was on would be guess work and I don't have many AT diaries. Someone may be able to help and say which port X Ambulance Train delivered the wounded to and sometimes which ship they were loaded onto and the port of arrival. However, there would have been more than one Ambulance Train per day.

 

TEW

[mancpal]

TEW,

Thanks for your continued assistance . The above makes interesting reading. 

Although I've been looking at individual soldiers for a number of years I've spent very little time on troop movements in general so I think I would have struggled to glean this much.

thanks again,

 

simon

 

[TEW]

I assume you got the B Company, 7 Platoon from the FMP photo? It's rather an odd one, looks like early photoshopping to me. Some of the heads have odd shadows and are rather large!

 

TEW

[mancpal]

It's the same platoon photo originally from the Manchester Book of Honour which contains the photos of 11000 men who formed The Mcr Pals.many of the shots have been "photo-shopped" and are almost Frank Sidebottomesque !

The photo dates from 1915 and I have been told was taken in Heaton Park though the 22nds didn't train there so it could be Morecambe, Grantham or Lark Hill Camp, Salisbury Plain.

 

simon

[MBrockway]

The Official History (pp.161-162 - see link above) mentions No 38 Ambulance Train running to Godewaersvelde with casualties of Xth Corps in Oct 1917.

[TEW]

On 16 December 2017 at 14:37, MBrockway said:

The Official History (pp.161-162 - see link above) mentions No 38 Ambulance Train running to Godewaersvelde with casualties of Xth Corps in Oct 1917.

 

I'm still trying to make sense of some aspects of the evacuation process as there seems to be the occasional contradiction between EG what the DDMS of X corps says and what 7 Div. ADMS.

 

The Ecole Bienfaisance was the Main Dressing Station with an ADS in or near Hooge tunnel. The Ypres-Menin road was the obvious route of evacuation. Supposedly the serious and lying cases should have gone from ADS/MDS direct to the Godewaersvelde group of CCS but there is mention of having to go via 32 CCS at Brandhoek. That may just mean via the rail link. But X corps DDMS says the serious cases go to Godewaersvelde by MAC and the slight injuries go via 32 CCS.

 

Anyway, the DMS 2nd Army has a table of train movements for Godewaersvelde on the 4th and 5th Oct, have to work out now if that's inbound from Brandhoek or outbound to port.

 

TEW

[BullerTurner]

That will teach me to rely on Henry Williamson!  I think it was in the Golden Virgin when Philip Maddison is wounded twice but gets two wound stripes!  Mea culpa.

[TEW]

Haven't sifted all the details yet but 2nd Army DMS diary has the following info:

 

Two trains were working from Ypres Station and Brandhoek taking wounded of X Corps to the Godewaersvelde CCS group. 32 CCS (Brandhoek) although closed was being used as a walking wounded centre. Presumably the trains were just using the siding/juntion? at 32 CCS to move the serious wounded onto Godewaersvelde. How they got from the ADS/MDS to 32 CCS is not clear yet.

 

One train from Ypres Station arrived at Godewaersvelde at noon with 28 lying and 288 sitting cases. Second train left Brandhoek shortly after and went to Godewaersvelde, no details given. Congestion of wounded is noted at 32 CCS so another train was ordered which took 750 sitting cases to Godewaersvelde within two hours.

 

One of the above trains must be the AT 38 mentioned by Mbrockway.

 

Then we have a table giving the medical arrangements, NB Godewaersvelde is group III and 7th Division medics were based at 11CCS.

 

Then AT movements from the various CCS areas;

 

So, from the Godewaersvelde group 4th-6th Oct we have ATs 25, 14, 6, 18 and TAT 126 with a total of 3119 ORs of X Corps. Impossible to say which one Lamb was on.

 

Still working on the evacuation from the battlefield backwards.

TEW

[MBrockway]

The war diary sources are much clearer than the OH Medical Services volume, which gets very generalised after 31 Jul and the battle was well under way.

 

Here's the section about 38AT in full ...

 

Mark

 

[mancpal]

Thanks again for all your help.

On the matter of his wound stripes i note a time lapse of about 6 weeks between injury and appearing on the daily list in 1917. Would there have been a similar length delay in 1916, meaning his first wound would have occurred sometime around mid -August 1916.  I'm pretty sure the 22nds wear still on the Somme but I can't remember precisely where off hand

 

Simon

[TEW]

The general rule that is quoted frequently is 3-4 weeks from injury to appearing in the lists. Less than 3 weeks is unlikley but in many cases some men get left off lists and can end up showing up on the lists months after the event.

 

Given the number of casualties 1/7/1916 I wouldn't be surprised if a casualty on that day showed up on a list dated 28/9/1916.

 

I just randomly found a man on a 1/12/1916 list that was injured Sept 1916 so his delay is 8-9 weeks.

 

The list of 28/9/1916 has about 45 names on and those will be from various Manchester battalions, the thing to do would be to check for service records for those names and see what pattern of dates of injury come out of that.

 

I suspect that working backwards from 28/9/1916 you'd end up finding one enourmous list of Manchester Regiment men that were injured 1/7/1916. The other thing is that sometimes you find a group of men injured on the same day but they show up on different lists a week or two apart.

 

TEW

[TEW]

I had a look at the 28/9/1916 list and only found 5 service records out of the 45 names. Two of the five have no sheets relating to their injuries. There's a letter written by one man of the 22/Manchesters saying he was wounded 1/9/1916 on the Somme. the last two can only be deduced by their transfer dates from their battalion to the Depot. Both of these are circa 10/9/1916.

 

Not much data to go on but it would seem early September 1916 is going to be the best bet.

 

The diaries for Sept 1916 show quite a rate of casualties for ORs;

31/8/1916-3/9/1916. Wounded 64.

6/9/1916-7/9/1916. Wounded 34.

 

22/Manchesters were training for most of August, C & D companies went into the line 31/8/1916. A & B companies remained in camp until 1/9/1916. A & B were heavily shelled 1/9/1916-2/9/1916. 22/Manchesters left the line evening of the 3rd Sept.

 

Went back into the support line evening of the 6th and were shelled again. Went into the front line early on the 7th, were shelled and sniped at until early morning on the 8th when they returned to camp. In billets until 19/9/1916.

 

With 98 wounded 31/8/1916 to 7/9/1916 one would expect to see a larger casualty list somewhere than just the 45 men of various Manchester battalions 28/9/1916.

 

TEW