Richard Faulkner Posted 12 December , 2017 Share Posted 12 December , 2017 My wife and I are researching family members who served in WW1. We are having great luck with our Canadian ancestors but we are very frustrated in finding information about her English great uncle James Colin Preedy. James signed up with the 1/5th Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment, was buried in cemetery near Adana and was Exhumed and buried in the North Gate Cemetery in Baghdad. The fact that he died in or near Adana would suggest he was taken there as a POW but diaries of the 1/5th would not suggest he became a POW while serving with that regiment nor would he have been killed in action as recorded in CWGC records. Someone told me that he may have been attached to the 2nd Battalion Norfolk Regiment. Were members of the 1/5th attached to the Norfolk and if so when and where would this have occured (we are unable to find his service records). Records state that he died on April 29, 1916, the date of the British surrender at Kut. Was the 2nd Norfolk at Kut and if it was and James was attached to them, how could he have died on that date and been buried in Adana? Could he have been taken prisoner in earlier battles with the Norfolk - I am unable to access the Norfolk war diaries. Any help in solving this puzzle will be greatly appreciated. Kathy & Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 December , 2017 Share Posted 13 December , 2017 Mate, Did you see this 1/5th Battalion August 1914 : in Guildford. Part of Surrey Brigade, Home Counties Division. 29 October 1914 : to India, remaining there until December 1915 when moved to Mesopotamia, where they remained throughout the war. December 1914 – January 1915 with Lucknow Brigade, 8th (Lucknow) Division. Transferred in April 1915 to Allahabad Brigade in same Division. Transferred in November 1915 to 12th Brigade in 12th Indian Division and went to Mesopotamia. May 1916 transferred with Brigade to 15th Indian Division. During this period Townsend was besieged in Kut, Dec 1915 to April 1916 You will need to confirm his BN of the Queens RWSR was in Kut or part of the forces sent to relieve the Garrison, where he may have died from illness, very commen in that part of the country during the war or in action as you state? His Bn was in that country so the Norfolk maybe a red herring, but all ideas should remain open? Cheers S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 13 December , 2017 Share Posted 13 December , 2017 This really is a bit of an enigma. Soldiers Died in the Great War (SDGW) records him as Killed in action on the 29th April 1916 while serving with the 1st/5th Battalion Royal West Surrey Regiment. (It also says he was born, resident and enlisted Godalming, Surrey, but I'm sure you know that :-). Killed in action would imply his fate was known. But if he was originally buried in Adana, Turkey, then that would imply he was a prisoner - but the International Red Cross (IRC) have received no information to that effect and hold no file for him. The main contingent of 2nd Norfolks were certainly besieged at Kut, along with the rest of their Division. I don't believe any detachment of the QRWS were ever amongst them. For a list of units besieged at Kut see https://www.stephen-stratford.com/pte_wilby.htm However not all the Norfolks were trapped there. Escorts for the wounded, drafts waiting at base camp, cooks and transport men, escaped the siege and joined together with similar groups from the 2nd Dorsets to form a temporary unit commonly known as the "Norsets". These would fight as part of the relief force, and would expand as new drafts arrived to almost a full strength battalion. There is a scenario in which your relative could have arrived as part of a draft intended for the 1/5th QRWS but was siphoned off into the "Norsets". One way of checking that would be to have a look at his Medal Index Card (MiC). If he first entered a Theatre of War before 31st December 1915 then he would have qualified for the 1914/15 star and there will be a date and Theatre number on his card. If he first entered a Theatre of War after that date then there will be no entry on the card. So if he went from India to Mesopotamia, or his date of entry ties in with the arrival of the 12th Brigade in Mesopotamia, then very unlikely he was besieged in Kut. By the third week of April 1916 the Norsets and the relief column had reached the marshes to the south of Kut and were within sight of the city. On the 22nd a large scale attack was launched, but was beaten back with considerable casualties. I came across this information a few years ago - unfortunately the web-page no longer exists. On 22nd April the Norsets (part of the 21st Brigade) were in the marsh area trying to relief the Kut fortress. Heavy fighting took part in the early hours of the day. Of the 45 officers and 858 other ranks 22 OR's were killed, 146 wounded and 22 missing. The attack was beaten back and the Norsets eventually retired when Kut was captured. As far as I'm aware aggressive patrolling was maintained, so your Great Uncle may have been part of that. One much overlooked activity in this campaign was the role of the riverboats, particularly the gunboats. Given the nature of the terrain it was quite often difficult to bring artillery into play, and so these gunboats would provide local support. They would also attempt to break through the blockade, enabling supply boats to reach Kut. The last attempt I believe was made on the 24th April but was unsuccessful. The boats were crewed by the Royal Navy but had Army men on board to man machine guns and do the fighting. If you take a look at the 5th Battalion War Diary for the 7th April 1916 you will see it includes the note "On the arrival of 'Snakefly' 'transfly" the up river patrol was again taken over by these boats." There are also references to a T1 and a T4 which I suspect were also (transport) boats. http://qrrarchive.websds.net/PDF/QW01519160401.pdf Several of the boats were captured or destroyed during the course of the siege. Obviously soldiers aboard them may have been taken prisoner of war or have made their way into the allied lines at Kut. I then went looking for other men of the 1/5 QRWS who died on this day and there is only one - Private 240677 Joseph Edward Neale. His entry on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC) site shows he was 1/5th Battalion The Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment attached 2nd Battalion Norfolk Regiment. https://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/638037/ His entry on Soldiers Died in the Great War however shows him as "Died". Going back to the CWGC Private Neale was buried at Kut War Cemetery. Checking out the Grave Registration Report the man in the grave next to him was a Private 9506 E. Nichol 2nd Dorsets who died on the 30th April 1916. Again there are no IRC files for either of them. Going further down the same page of the Grave Registration document there are men who died in the last two weeks of the siege and who served with the 2nd Dorsets \ 76th Battery Royal Field Artillery \ 120th Infantry \ 1st Ox & Bucks \ A Signal company from the 12th Division - all units trapped in Kut. So a real head-scratcher. Without his Army service records you may need to see if there is anything in local papers. In the meantime I'll give it some more thought and see if I can come up with anything else. Hope that helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 13 December , 2017 Share Posted 13 December , 2017 Mate, The Turks record these battles during the attempted relief by the British as Ottoman 52nd Div besieged Kut 10/13-12-15 & battle at Shaikh Saad & 1st Hanna (attempt relief Kut) 7/13-1-16 or Vadii kelal (13-1-16), 1st Felahiye battle or 2nd Hanna (attempt relief Kut) 20/21-1-16 at Sabis or Es Sinn (attempt relief Kut) 8-3-16 at Turkish records 2 & 3rd Felahiye battles (April 6-9) or Fallahiya & Sannaiyat (attempt relief Kut) 5-4-16 at Beytisa or Abu Rumman (attempt relief Kut) (17/19-4-16) S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 18 February , 2018 Share Posted 18 February , 2018 I did find out something more at the time, but as the OP didn’t come back, it dropped down my list of “to do’s” as I realised it would still take a bit of work. First off, courtesy of the British Newspapers Archive, I came across a piece in the edition of The Surrey Adveriser dated Monday June 26, 1916. SURREY MEN AT KUT. PRESUMED TO BE PRISONERS OF WAR. On Thursday the War Office published a list of men who were with Gen. Townsend at Kut-el-Amara, and are believed to be prisoners of war. The list included the following men of The Queen’s Territorial Battalions, who were in the drafts which went from India last year to the Norfolk Regt. in the Persian Gulf. The addresses in each case are those of next-of-kin. THE QUEEN’S 768 Pte. F.G. Bartlett, Guildford. 1893 Lance-Corpl. W.S. Bartlett, W. Croydon. 1733 Pte. J.W.Bicknell, Haslemere. 1975 Pte. A. Bridger, The Bourne. 1936 Pte.R. Burns, Addiscombe. 1398 Pte. A.Cook, Camberley. 2080 Lance-Corpl. C.J. Cothill, South Croydon. 2405 Pte. W. Elphick, Sydenham, S.E. 2389 Pte. H. Filce, Croydon. 1435 Pte. A. Friday, Horley. 1628 Corpl. A. Fuller, Caterham. 2252 Pte. J.W.D. Gower, Godalming. 1480 Pte. J.W. Green, Farnham. 1646 Pte. W. Gregory, Cobham. 218 Pte. A. Lucas, Guildford. 1543 Pte. H. Maxfield, Guildford. 279 Sergt. E.J. Mortimer, Wallington. 2467 Pte. J.E. Neale, Guildford and Hungerford. 2053 Pte. J. Preedy, Godalming. 1694 Lance-Corpl. J. Roake, Woking (Compton). 2293 Pte. F.J. Rose, Bagshot. 2294 Pte. A. Rovery, Caterham. 2247 Pte. W. Sandford, Tooting, S.W. 1448 Pte. A.J. Seagrave, Horsham. 2035 Pte. H.Simmonds, Farncombe. 1581 Lance-Corpl. H.G. Stafford, Lingfield. 935 Pte. A. Styles, Albury. 1260 Pte. F. Wallis, Chobham. 1447 Pte. W.W. Watson, Reigate. 759 Pte. J. White, Bagshot. 968 Pte. R. Wrigley, Norwood, S.W. Pte. J.E. Neale is the well-known Guildford footballer. The absence of news of him led to the surmise that he was among the beleaguered at Kut. Pte. Bartlett’s home address is 47, George-road Guildford, and that of Pte. Maxfield, 6 Gardner-road. In the cases of the last two last-named no word has been received from them for upwards of six months. The official communication from the War Office to their friends states that they are presumed to be prisoners of war. We know James Preedy is recorded as Killed in Action (SDGW) on the 29th April 1916 (SDGW and CWGC) but that he was initially buried deep in Turkey at Adana (CWGC) – and that information is apparently incompatible. I therefore did some analysis on the fates of the other men on the list. To save me keep re-typing – MIC. = Medal Index Card, CWGC = Commonwealth War Graves Commission and IRC = International Red Cross. Note – all the units of the Territorial Force had their other ranks renumbered at the end of 1916, in a six digit format starting with a 2. A block starting 200000 was normally assigned to the 1st Territorial Battalion in each Regiment – in the case of The Queens that would have been the 1st/4th. The fact that these men were issued numbers would seem to indicate that they were believed to still be alive at that point. However they themselves, and the Turkish authorities, would not have been aware of them, so any contemporary grave marker would have quoted their original service number. 768 Pte. F.G. Bartlett, Guildford. MIC: Frederick G. Bartlett T/768 became Lance-Corporal 240059. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1209728 CWGC: Lance Corporal 240059 5th Battalion. Died 27/11/1916. Originally buried Angora. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/632481/bartlett,-/ IRC: Private enqury by Mrs Bartlett of 47 George Road, Guildford. Private of the 2nd Norfolk Regiment, taken prisoner at Kut. – IRC response, “Nothing heard” https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/4948379/3/2/ However a list of prisoners held at Afion-Karahissar dated 15/11/1916 produced by the Turkish Red Cross lists a Private “J.H.” Bartlett, aged 32 and from Croydon, who was 768 5th Queens and captured at Kut on the 29th April 1916. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/2706752/708/50323/ Another report dated 15th January 1917 records him moving from Afion-Karahissar to Angora. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/01/03/C_G1_E_01_03_0003/C_G1_E_01_03_0003_0300.JPG/ The final report dated 15th February 1917 records his death on the 27/11/1916 at Angora. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/01/03/C_G1_E_01_03_0004/C_G1_E_01_03_0004_0018.JPG/ 1893 Lance-Corpl. W.S. Bartlett, W. Croydon. MIC: William S. Bartlett Private T/1893 became Private 200454. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1211101 CWGC: Lance Corporal T/1893 William Stanley Bartlett, “B” Coy, 1st/4th Battalion attached 2nd Norfolks. Died 30/09/1916. Originally buried Entelli. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/632482/bartlett,-william-stanley/ IRC: No match. 1733 Pte. J.W.Bicknell, Haslemere. MIC: William J. Bicknell Private T/1733 became T/205839. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1321474 CWGC: No match. IRC: No match. 1975 Pte. A. Bridger, The Bourne. MIC: Owen Bridger Private T/1975 became 240366. CWGC: No match either first initial. IRC: No match either name. 1936 Pte.R. Burns, Addiscombe. MIC: Robert Burn Private T/1936 became 200488. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1600703 CWGC: Private 200488 Robert Burn, 1st/4th Battalion. Died 30/10/1916. Originally buried at Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/632783/burn,-robert/ IRC: No match. 1398 Pte. A.Cook, Camberley. MIC : probably Arthur Cook, Private T/13981 became T/240126. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D1915780 CWGC: Private T/240126 Arthur Cook, 1st/5th Battalion attached 2nd Norfolks. Died 09/05/1916. Place of death not known. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1656378/cook,-arthur/ IRC : Private enquiry about Private 1398 Arthur Edward Cook “B” Coy, 5th Queens, attached 2nd Norfolks, Kut Garrison. IRC response, “Nothing heard” https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/1697252/3/2/ 2080 Lance-Corpl. C.J. Cothill, South Croydon. MIC: Charles J. Cothill, Lance Corporal T/2080 became 200594. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6234786 CWGC : Lance Corporal 200594 C J Cothill, 1st/4th Battalion. Died 20/09/1916. Originally buried at Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/633062/cothill,-/ IRC: No match. 2405 Pte. W. Elphick, Sydenham, S.E. MIC: Walter Elphick, Private T/2405 became T/200845. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3470742 CWGC: Private T/200845 Walter Elphick, 1st/4th Battalion. Died 21/09/1916. Originally buried at Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/633341/elphick,-walter/ IRC: No match. 2389 Pte. H. Filce, Croydon. MIC: Harry Filce, Private T/2389 became T/200832 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2224206 CWGC: No match. IRC: No match. 1435 Pte. A. Friday, Horley. MIC: Albert Friday, Private T/1435 became 240141 http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2249811 CWGC: No match. IRC: Private 1435 Albert A. Friday, 1/5 Battalion. Captured 29-4-16, Kut. Report dated 15th April 1917, being held at Afion-Karahissar. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/01/03/C_G1_E_01_03_0004/C_G1_E_01_03_0004_0270.JPG/ 1628 Corpl. A. Fuller, Caterham. MIC: Arthur F.Fuller, Serjeant T/1628 became 200299. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2260331 CWGC: Corporal 200299 A F Fuller, 1st/4th Battalion. Died 23/08/1916. Originally buried at Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/633486/fuller,-/ IRC: No match. 2252 Pte. J.W.D. Gower, Godalming. MIC: John W D Gower, 1/5th The Queens Regiment Private T/2252 became T/240529. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2394085 CWGC: Private 2252 J.W.D. Gower, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 15/12/1916. Originally buried Afion Kara Hissar. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/633588/gower,-/ IRC: Private enquiry from his sister. Pte 2252 Queen’s Royal West Surrey Regt. attached Norfolks, Kut Garrison. Missing since surrender of Kut. Original reply was “Nothing heard”, (sent 22/09/1916). A report was then received from the Turkish Red Cross dated 15th March 1917 that 2262 John William Gower, captured at Kut, died of Typhoid at Afion-Kara-Hissar on the 15th December 1916. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/01/03/C_G1_E_01_03_0004/C_G1_E_01_03_0004_0072.JPG/ 1480 Pte. J.W. Green, Farnham. MIC: Thomas W. Green, Private T/1480 became 240160. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2437057 CWGC: Private 240160 T W Green, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 23/08/1916. Originally buried at Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/633610/green,-/ IRC: No match. 1646 Pte. W. Gregory, Cobham. MIC: William Gregory, Private T/1646 became 240225. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D2452108 CWGC: Private T/240225 W. Gregory. 1st/5th Battalion. Died 01/09/1916.Originally buried at Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/633620/gregory,-/ IRC: No match. 218 Pte. A. Lucas, Guildford. MIC: possibly Albert H. Lucas, Private TR/218. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3733000 CWGC: Private T/218 Albert Henry Lucas, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 18/09/1916. Originally buried at Konia. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/634270/lucas,-albert-henry/ IRC: No match. 1543 Pte. H. Maxfield, Guildford. MIC: Horace Maxfield, Private 1543, became 240189. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3995341 CWGC: Private 240189 H. Maxfield, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 22/08/1916. Originally buried at Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/634445/maxfield,-/ IRC: Private enquiry. Private 1543 H.Maxfield, 1/5th Queens, attached 2nd Norfolk. Officially reported missing before the 26th December 1915. IRC response, “Nothing heard” https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3809415/3/2/ 279 Sergt. E.J. Mortimer, Wallington. MIC: Edward J. Mortimer, Serjeant T/279, became 240029. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4158699 CWGC: Serjeant T/240029 Edward James Mortimer, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 31/07/1916. Place of death not known. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1658069/mortimer,-edward-james/ IRC: No match. 2467 Pte. J.E. Neale, Guildford and Hungerford. MIC: No obvious match. CWGC: Private 240677 Joseph Edward Neale, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 29/04/1916. Buried Kut War Cemetery. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/638037/neale,-joseph-edward/ IRC: No match. *****2053 Pte. J. Preedy, Godalming.***** MIC: James Preedy, Private T/2053 became T/240406. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4707945 CWGC: https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/634900/preedy,-james-colin/ IRC: No match ********************************************* 1694 Lance-Corpl. J. Roake, Woking (Compton). MIC: John Roake, Private T/1694 became T/240240. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4879181 CWGC: Private T/240240 John Roake, 5th Battalion. Died 31/12/1916. Place of death not known. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1658975/roake,-john/ IRC: No match. 2293 Pte. F.J. Rose, Bagshot. MIC: Frederick Rose (no middle initial), Private T/2293 became T/240562. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4944882 CWGC: Private T/240562 Frederick John Rose, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 27/09/1916. Originally buried Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/635064/rose,-frederick-john/ IRC: No match. 2294 Pte. A. Rovery, Caterham. MIC: Albert Rovery, Private T/2294 became Corporal 200746. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D4960418 CWGC: No match. IRC: No match. 2247 Pte. W. Sandford, Tooting, S.W. MIC: William Sandford, Private T/4/2247 became 206597. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5020260 CWGC: Private T/206597 William Sandford, 1st/4th Battalion. Died 31/12/1916. Place of death not known – remembered on the Jerusalem Memorial. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1646945/sandford,-william/ IRC: No match. 1448 Pte. A.J. Seagrave, Horsham. MIC: Alfred J. Seagrave, Private T/1448 became T/240148. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5070554 CWGC: Private T/240148 Alfred James Seagrave, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 31/12/1916. Place of death not known. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/1659227/seagrave,-alfred-james/ IRC: No match. 2035 Pte. H.Simmonds, Farncombe. MIC: Henry G. Simmonds, Private T/2035 became T/240395. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5159932 CWGC: Private T/240395 Henry George Simmonds, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 31/12/1916. Place of death not known. IRC: No match. 1581 Lance-Corpl. H.G. Stafford, Lingfield. MIC: Henry G. Stafford, Corporal T/1581 became Corporal L/13209, then T/200271 and finally 6077631 Serjeant. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5346184 CWGC: No match. IRC: A report dated 5th March 1917 records him as taken at the fall of Kut and now a prisoner at Amanus. As the report is in French is not clear whether he has arrived there from Entilli (or Entelli) or he was going to Entilli \ Entelli. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/3072203/3/2/ 935 Pte. A. Styles, Albury. MIC: Albert Styles, Private J/935 became 240063. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5250663 CWGC: Private 240063 A. Styles, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 29/08/1916. Originally buried Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/635400/styles,-/ IRC: No match. 1260 Pte. F. Wallis, Chobham. MIC: Frederick Wallis, Private T/1260 became T/240094. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5720072 CWGC: No match. IRC: No match. 1447 Pte. W.W. Watson, Reigate. MIC: Walter W. Watson, Private T/1447 became T/24014. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D5782509 CWGC: Private T/240147 Walter Wilfred Watson, 1st/5th Battalion. Died 31/12/1916. Originally buried, (as R.W. Watson), at Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/635690/watson,-walter-wilfred/ IRC: No match. 759 Pte. J. White, Bagshot. MIC: Jack White, Private T/759. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6257427 CWGC: Probably Private 240058 J. White, 1st/5th Battalion. (Additional information is that his mother lives in Bagshot). Died 29/08/1916. Originally buried at Yarbashi. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/635768/white,-/ IRC: No match. 968 Pte. R. Wrigley, Norwood, S.W. MIC: Robert Wrigley, Private T/968 became 200111. http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6032809 CWGC: Private 200111 Robert Wrigley, 1st/4th Battalion. Died 18/12/1916. Originally buried at Afion Kara Hissar. https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/635914/wrigley,-robert/ IRC: Private enquiry initially, but then a report was received dated 28th December 1916 recording him as taken at the fall of Kut and now held at Afion-Karahissar. https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/692800/3/2/ Of course true to form, having done all that, an internet search to try and fill in the gaps turned up that not only had most of this been done before – but it was done on this site J Highlights from that. Serjeant Arthur Frederick Fuller was one of 50 men along with a Lieutenant Jefferis who were sent to Mesopotamia. Corporal Henry Stafford returned to England and re-enlisted as L-13209. Private Owen Bridger discharged 22/03/1919. Private Arthur Cook died at Shawran (? – suspect that should be Shamran). William Stanley Bartlett died from his wounds at Entilli. So now for the boring statistical analysis bit. The newspaper report listed 31 names, of which I’ve been able to identify 7 were with the 1st/4th, 17 were with the 1st/5th and for 7 no specific battalion could be found at this point. Of these 31, 24 would die. At 77% that sadly is consistent with the other ranks from other British units who marched into captivity at Kut – and that’s of course assuming that all those who “survived” were indeed captured. At least 12 of the 31 were held at Yarbashi, and all 12 died there. 10 were held at an unknown place and 5 died there. Only 7 out of the 31 have any IRC papers, (23%). Of those 7, 5 of the files were initiated by a private contact, (71%), rather than as a result of receiving information from the Turkish Red Cross. Conclusions While looking at the other thread I could help but notice in passing that other sources refer to the men captured at Kut as having died “between the 29th April 1916 and the 31st December 1916”, a formula familiar to anyone who has looked for casualties on CWGC for those who died in the German Spring Offensive, or in a later conflict, the men of the BEF in the retreat to Dunkirk and St.Valery in 1940, where dates start usually from the 10th May and go to the end of June, July or even December. For some reason the CWGC don’t appear to think its relevant here – although of the 24 who died 2 are recorded as dying on the 29th April 1916 and 5 on the 31st December 1916 – 29% of the total. I suspect that in trying to get the original grave registration report to fit into columns that last date was sacrificed, and so we have a source that has the death of your wife’s great uncle on the day that Kut fell, an event in which he is believed to have been part, and yet he was hundreds of miles away in Turkey. A word of caution is now appropriate. The Official War Office notice that was the source of these names links them to the surrender of Kut. However the IRC records have another 1st/5th man from the list, Horace Maxfield, who was “officially missing before the 26th December 1915” and who would subsequently died at Yarbashi. This is not the first time I’ve come across this sort of scenario, and its one in which both the date and place of James’ death would then make much more sense. Unfortunately the allies were having enough trouble getting supplies into Kut, so I doubt if they would have been bothered to carry paperwork records out or transmit the details in them via radio telegraphy, so other than the odd autobiography and personal diary, I suspect there is little way of finding out if men were lost while on patrol on in attempts to force the siege. So one last thought. If he was captured at Kut on the 29th April, and died at Adana, it would seem likely he had become separated from the other R.W.S. men along the way. A best guess as to when he died may come from the other men forced to surrender and who died at Adana. The Grave Report attached to the CWGC webpage for James has 15 other names on it. Potential candidates based on their units are:- CQMS R. Roythorne, 2/R.West Kent, died 20.9.16. Pte. R.J. Nash, 1/Ox. & Bucks L.I., died 25.9.16. L/Cpl H.E. Rust, 2/Dorset Regt, died 30.9.16. Pte. W.J. North, 1/4th Hants Regt., died 30.9.16. CSM W. Raynbird, 1/4th Hants Regt., died 23.11.16. Pte. F. Mummery, 1/Ox. & Bucks L.I., died 30.11.16. There will be more on the pages before and after. Going back to the details for the 24 men who died, 21%, (5), are known to have died in August and 25% (6) in September. This ties in with an outbreak of cholera and typhus in the camps, most likely brought back by the men who were forced to work on the Berlin to Baghdad railway in an area where those diseases were known to be endemic – a scenario that sound depressingly familiar, particularly for a Battalion of the Norfolk Regiment. I’m not planning to do any more on this beyond send the OP a PM, but hopefully it will help others. Cheers, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Faulkner Posted 10 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 10 May , 2018 Hi Peter! Kathy and I want to thank you sincerely for taking so much of your time to provide all of this information and insight into the confusing history of Kathy's great Uncle James Colin Preedy. I have spent many hours searching sites but obviously you are much better at this type of research and have access to much better resources that I have been able to find. We hope that further research will uncover more information and details regarding James service in the Middle East. With the 100th anniversary of the end of WW1 fast approaching I hope to have a biography written and shared with other family members, for each of the 12 known family members who served in the Great War. James was one of three great uncles who died during the war, the others being killed while serving with Canadian Divisions at Vimy Ridge and Ancre Heights (Regina Trench). I have tried reaching out to the Norfolk Museum for help but so far I have not been able to get any response. Hopefully, Kathy's Preedy cousins living in Southend will have better luck where they are in country and closer to the sources. Lawrence Spring at the Surrey History Centre thinks James may have been held as a POW at Yarbashi; I have not been able to find out much information about this camp and would appreciate any insight that you may have on this camp. In summary, this is how I think the puzzle fits together and I would appreciate your comments regarding this theory. It seems certain that James was not "killed in action" on April 29, 1916 but rather died at a later date as a POW in Turkey. Although we have no documented proof as of yet but It does appears that he ended up there as a result of being attached the 2nd Norfolk and was captured either in the Kut surrender or in efforts to relieve the forces in Kut. He probably died from dysentery while working at the Yarbashi POW Camp in Turkey, was buried in Adana and later his body was exhumed and reburied in the Baghdad North Gate Cemetery. Once again, thank you for your assistance and we would very much appreciate any further information you may discover in this matter in the future. Richard & Kathy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 12 May , 2018 Share Posted 12 May , 2018 (edited) On 10/05/2018 at 21:25, Richard Faulkner said: I have spent many hours searching sites but obviously you are much better at this type of research and have access to much better resources that I have been able to find. If only – it’s mainly dumbness that means I don’t know when to give up or even when not to start :-) My knowledge comes solely from researching too many pre-war regulars of the 2nd Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, who failed to survive their captivity and whose names appear on so many of the memorials around Norfolk. As to the scenario you have painted, I will give you an alternative based on (informed) guesswork. James volunteered for the Territorial Force following the outbreak of war. He may have signed away his right to serve in ‘UK only’ from the outset or subsequently. Even then, he would have been on different pay and Terms and Conditions to those signing up for the Regular Army or the new (Wartime) Service Battalions of Kitcheners Armies. My reason for coming down on this interpretation is that Soldiers Died in the Great War shows him as Born, Resident and Enlisted at Godalming. In my experience of pre-war Norfolk and Suffolk Territorials, SDGW just shows a place of “enlistment” –where service records have survived that’s translates as the depot they reported to on mobilization. Now it may just have been a co-incidence and may not apply universally but for now that’s my working rule of thumb. As his papers haven’t survived then confirmation may come from looking at those that signed up at the same time. Unfortunately I don’t have access to Ancestry, and I can only access FMP when I’m in a public library so I’m afraid someone else will have to check it out, but as a starter, based on the T/2053 service number, here are the 10 likely matches on either side identified from the Medal Index Cards at the National Archive. (Note the T/2053 service number appears twice. The other man Reginald Harber, I suspect was in the 1/4th. As part of the Territorial renumbering he became T/200575. The list below therefore only shows men know to have been renumbered into the T/240*** range.) T/2043 (T/240400) Charles Caesar T/2044 – No match T/2045 – No match T/2046 (T/240401) Richard Dalman T/2047 – No match T/2048 (T/240402) Reginald Curtis T/2049 (T/240403) Walter G, Carter T/2050 – No match T/2051 – No match T/2052 – No match ************** T/2054 (T/240407) Charles Noel T/2055 – No match T/2056 – No match T/2057 – No match (Harry Edward Meades was 2/4th and died at Gallipoli) T/2058 – No match T/2059 – No match T/2060 (T/240408) Horace Jackman T/2061 (T/240409) Jack Albert Norman T/2062 – No match T/2063 – George H. Hobbs – was 1/5th but died at Basra on the 05/02/1917 which was probably just about the time the new numbers were kicking in. The no matches doesn’t mean the numbers weren’t allocated – they may simply relate to men who did not initially sign up for overseas service and so may have been moved into other home service battalions. This distinction was swept away with the introduction of conscription in 1916 and so they could well have ended up serving with other Regiments. They could also have been discharged as unfit for military service or remained on the Home Front throughout. Similarly there are a number of men who could have been wounded \ taken ill whilst serving with the 1st/5th and who joined another unit on returning to some semblance of health. (There are at least three potential matches for men in the right service number range who would go on to serve with the Labour Corps, for example). Hopefully the names identified will turn up some papers that can give you a potential guide as to when he signed up, where he trained and when he went out to India. Most likely he sailed with the Battalion on the 29th October 1914, bound for India. The battalion would remain in India until December 1915 when it moved to Mesopotamia. Source: http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/queens-royal-west-surrey-regiment/ The Battalion War Diary does not commence until the 27th October 1915. At that point the Battalion had detachments at Lucknow, Fyzabad and Lebong. The breakdown of Battalion strength also includes 1 Officer and 44 Other Ranks attached Force D, 2nd Norfolk Regiment. Source: http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/war_diaries/local/1_5Bn_Queens/1_5Bn_Queens_1915/1_5Bn_Queens_1915_10.shtml (This would tie in with the newspaper report) As Territorial troops on different T’s & C’s , the detachment serving with the 2nd Norfolks would probably have served as a distinct unit, probably a half-company, rather than be filtered into the regular companys of the 2nd Norfolk. The Norfolk Regimental Museum may therefore have nothing about them in any surviving primary documents, and references to them may at best occur in any surviving Officer’s papers from the siege. To the best of my knowledge there is no surviving 2nd Battalion War Diary for the period of the siege from the perspective of those inside the city. Keeping them separate would have also made it easier to return them to their parent unit when the situation permitted. James was trapped in Kut-el-Amara along with the rest of General Townshends’ force. Surviving the siege he would march into captivity to die at some point between “29th April 1916 and 31st December 1916”. We can infer he survived the march and ended up at one of the many camps in Anatolia by June/July 1916. These were seldom the sort of thing that the movies would have us believe – my understanding is that Yarbashi for example was little more than a dusty plain with a minimum of cover and no real perimeter. However far from any hope of refuge, surrounded by a hostile population, weakened bt the siege and robbed of their possessions on the march, and now being worked to death, starved and exposed to unsanitary conditions, the allied troops had no real prospect of escape. Elsewhere the prisoners were housed in Anatolian towns in unused houses, schools and church buildings. https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/prisoners_of_war_ottoman_empiremiddle_east The same source notes that of the 2,680 British Other Ranks captured at Kut, by the time of the armistice with Turkey 210 had been repatriated or had escaped, 1,306 were known to have died and 449 were simply unaccounted for, with 715 still prisoners. James Preedy was probably one of the 449, with his final location subsequently coming to light. James almost certainly ended up at Adana rather than Yarbashi – its unlikely but not impossible he would have been moved between camps at that point although this was fairly common. Both locations provided work parties for the construction of the Berlin – Baghdad railway. ADANA (SEYHAN): The Turks incarcerated British prisoners of war in Adana, a city located in the Vilayet of Adana in Asia Minor. Adana was located in southern Anatolia on the left bank of the Seyhan River, thirty miles north of the river's discharge into the Mediterranean Sea, south of the Tarsus (Toros) Mountains. The city also lay on the Constantinople to Baghdad Railway line. British and Indian prisoners from Kut-al-Amara and Australian POW's from Gallipoli spent their captivity in Adana. Source: http://www.gutenberg-e.org/steuer/steuer/archive/AppendixA/Turkish Prison Camps/prison_shell.html?Adana (That seems to confirm my impression that Adana and Yarbashi were some distance apart, reducing the likelihood that James moved between the two locations) The map here may help, although Yarbashi, in the Amanus Mountains part of the line doesn’t appear to be shown. https://app.box.com/s/n304osmvwcjl7tie9m1r If , as some writers believe, a big driver on the part of the Turkish authorities for not agreeing to the ransoming of the British prisoners, was the desire to continue the extermination of the Armenians, then both locations are possible. According to “Remembrance and Denial: The Case of the Armenian Genocide” by Richard G.Hovannisian, their arrival was the opportunity the Turkish authorities were looking for to take on the German civilian engineers who were overseeing the project and were using their authority to hide and employ considerable numbers of Armenians fleeing from the persecution in their home areas. Every time the police tried to arrest some of these Armenians, the railway project and transport of supplies ground to a halt as a result of “labour shortages”. The British and Indian Prisoners were to address that shortage. Their arrival led to large swoops on the engineering camps and the wholesale round-up of the Armenians. It is alleged in the book that the massacres started almost as soon as the prisoner convoys were out of eyesight and earshot of the Europeans left behind. See https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kiBHkRtRmIIC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=Yarbashi+1916&source=bl&ots=WyaKMBD9yD&sig=5g9nvwYM3QgKeZK4DldX-lvIXdE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwix-oaU6O7OAhXJLhoKHa0tC80Q6AEIQTAJ#v=onepage&q=Yarbashi 1916&f=false The book specificaly references activities to hide the true identities of the Armenians at Yarbashi and Entilli, (Henry Stafford and William Bartlett from the list above may have died at Entilli). A “massacre” at Adana in 1909 either left 1,500 dead in fighting amongst Armenians according to the Turkish government or 25,000 dead in a state sanctionned pogrom according to the Armenians. The survivors of the community were deported to Syria during the first world war. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adana See also here for an enormous number of helpful links: https://wiki.fibis.org/w/Prisoners_of_the_Turks_(First_World_War) Highlights from there include: One of the Germans constructing the Railway Line took a number of contemporary pictures of Adana, which can be seen at the German National Archive. If you scroll down the page the set you are looking for is titled “Bagdadbahn, Taurusgebirge, Belemedik, Adana” http://holzmann.fh-potsdam.de/index.php/nggallery/page/2?page_id=681 A photoset on Flickr includes this picture of a building in Adana which was stated to be the prison camp and hospital in WW1. WW1, POW hospital at Adana Turkey by Railmaid, on Flickr James most likely died in August \ September 1916. That’s based on the other deaths statistics I’ve compiled above. It may be that the administration in Adana was particularly bad at filing returns or James may have been an exception. By the time bodies were relocated to Baghdad circa 1927 it had been over a decade since he died and Turkey had been through its own major upheavals. Better information on the circumstances of the death of James Preedy may still exist within the archives of the late Ottoman empire and so may still come to light. Hope that helps, Peter Edited 12 May , 2018 by PRC Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Faulkner Posted 12 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2018 WOW!! So much information and Kathy and I are grateful that you "don't know when to give up". Thank you! I will review all of the links you have provided - I am certain they will shed more light on James' story. We have two of Jame's original letters to his parents. The first letter is dated October 14, 1914 and he writes he is with "7 Co 5 Batt Queens Headquarters Canterbury" The second letter is dated March 11, 1915 and he writes "7 Co 5 Queens RWS Lucknow India. In this letter he says he is including a photograph ( we don't have the picture) and in it he mentions one person as "Archie Smith's brother". James is from Godalming so I presume Archie Smith's brother must have been from Godalming area. We also have a copy of the Medal Rolls Index Card for James Preedy T/2053 and T?240406 and in the remarks column it states "Died 24-5-17". Again this adds more confusion to the situation as different sources provide differing causes and dates of death. It would be helpful to know where these sources come from. I am new to this kind of research so some of the abbreviations are unfamiliar - can you tell me what SDGW and FMP stand for? You have also listed other people who have service #'s both before and after the # for James. Were these #'s issued in the order in which people signed up and would they have been issued at the same location ? If the numbers were assigned to people from the same area then we may be able to get additional information by following through on some of those names - is that what you have implied in your listing of 10 names either side of James service #? If that is the case can you tell me how I can check on those other names? Thanks again for your continued support - Kathy and I, as well as the Preedy family members back in Southend are so excited that after 100 years we are starting to understand Jame's story. Sincerely, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Faulkner Posted 12 May , 2018 Author Share Posted 12 May , 2018 On 2017-12-13 at 19:06, stevebecker said: Mate, The Turks record these battles during the attempted relief by the British as Ottoman 52nd Div besieged Kut 10/13-12-15 & battle at Shaikh Saad & 1st Hanna (attempt relief Kut) 7/13-1-16 or Vadii kelal (13-1-16), 1st Felahiye battle or 2nd Hanna (attempt relief Kut) 20/21-1-16 at Sabis or Es Sinn (attempt relief Kut) 8-3-16 at Turkish records 2 & 3rd Felahiye battles (April 6-9) or Fallahiya & Sannaiyat (attempt relief Kut) 5-4-16 at Beytisa or Abu Rumman (attempt relief Kut) (17/19-4-16) S.B Thank you so much for your assistance in our attempt to determine the timeline of events surrounding my wife's great uncle James Colin Preedy. We have found records that suggest he was among the group of 1/5 Queens Royal West Surrey Regiment soldiers that were attached to the 2nd Norfolk Battalion that was captured in Kut. I will research he relief attempts you mentioned above as they also form a significant role in this event. Thanks again and any further information you may come across in this matter would be appreciated. Sincerely, Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 13 May , 2018 Share Posted 13 May , 2018 14 hours ago, Richard Faulkner said: The second letter is dated March 11, 1915 and he writes "7 Co 5 Queens RWS Lucknow India. In this letter he says he is including a photograph ( we don't have the picture) and in it he mentions one person as "Archie Smith's brother". James is from Godalming so I presume Archie Smith's brother must have been from Godalming area. We also have a copy of the Medal Rolls Index Card for James Preedy T/2053 and T?240406 and in the remarks column it states "Died 24-5-17". Again this adds more confusion to the situation as different sources provide differing causes and dates of death. It would be helpful to know where these sources come from. I am new to this kind of research so some of the abbreviations are unfamiliar - can you tell me what SDGW and FMP stand for? You have also listed other people who have service #'s both before and after the # for James. Were these #'s issued in the order in which people signed up and would they have been issued at the same location ? If the numbers were assigned to people from the same area then we may be able to get additional information by following through on some of those names - is that what you have implied in your listing of 10 names either side of James service #? If that is the case can you tell me how I can check on those other names? Start with the easy ones. SDGW – Soldiers Died in the Great War. FMP – FindMyPast SDGW is a database of British Army Officers and Other Ranks who died during or directly as a result of the Great War and who were still serving at the time of death. More restrictive in time period and scope than the statutory obligation of the Commonwealth War Grave Commission, it compensates for this by usually have additional information about the serviceman concerned, (although this can be hit and miss). Its based on two multi-volume books that were produced in the early 1920’s by the Governments Official Publisher, The Stationery Office. All of the main UK genealogy websites have access to it as part of their Military Records sets – certainly Ancestry, FindMyPast, The Genealogist, Genes Reunited and I suspect also Forces War Records. As to the Service Numbers – yes they would have been issued in the order that people signed up, or more likely the order that they reported to the Depot. In most cases an individual would attest at a recruiting office, have his initial medical and then go the depot in a fairly short timescale, so effectively there is no practicable difference between the order the men attested (enlisted) and the order they attended the Depot. It should therefore be very likely that Reginald Curtis, Walter Carter and Charles Noel attended the Depot within a day of each other and James Colin Preedy, and only marginally less likely they attested \ enlisted at the same recruiting office. The early stages of their military career, (training \ posting abroad), is likely to mirror the path followed by James. FindMyPast and Ancestry both have scans of Other Ranks service records where these have survived. If you don’t already subscribe to either of those two then they both regularly offer free trials. Additionally, if you are resident in the UK, local libraries usually have a subscription to one or the other. Most have Ancestry although a few like my own County Library Service have gone over to FindMyPast. The only catch is you have to access them onsite, so may be time to dig out your Library Card. Added bonus is that libraries have free unlimited access to the British Newspaper Archive website. The Surrey History Centre may have already done the legwork on identifying whose service records survive. Other than the Guards, who had a duplicate copy, all other regiments do not hold servicemens records. They can no longer be physically accessed at the National Archive at Kew. Should you go down the route of checking for those other servicemens records then it will be worthwhile searching for the “No match” items as well. Even UK service only men may have surviving records and if the point of the exercise is to identify where and when James might have attested then the information from their records will still be of value. As to ‘Archie Smiths brother’ there is a possible match. On the 1911 Census of England and Wales there is a 13 year old Archibald Smith, born Mortlake, Surrey, who was recorded living at the Station House, Godalming. This was the household of his parents, Edgar E, (aged 50, Station Master employed by the L.S.W. Railway, born Paddington), and Sarah Smith, (aged 51, born Lambeth Surrey). The couple have been married for 27 years and have had 7 children, of which 6 were then still alive. The six were all still single and living with them, and included 4 boys, (one of which was Archibald). The other three boys were:- Ernest Smith…..aged 24…..born Kennington, Surey…Carpenter & Joiner Edgar S Smith…aged 19….born Mortlake….Mechanical Engineer at a Motor Works Sydney Smith…aged 16…..born Mortlake….School Going on the Medal Index Cards alone I could only identify one likely match – a Private T/2320 Sydney Smith, The Queens Regiment, who would go on to be renumbered T/204924. That makes it seem likely he was serving with the 1/5th Battalion. Finally - the “Died 24-5-17” reference. This is only a theory, but as already mentioned, the International Red Cross do not appear to have any records for James. The news of his death may therefore have come from another source – one which did not include his date of death. As his pay would have continued accumulating there would have been an administrative requirement to close his record off. If the notification was dated 24-5-17 then the record could well have been closed down as “Died on or before 24-5-17”. It may even be that when his grave was identified at Adana that this was the first real means of identifying, if in a lazy way, when he actually died. That identification may well have come after the medal rolls were being prepared in 1919-1920 – fighting was continuing throughout that period between allied forces and Turkish supporters of Kemal Ataturk, making access to many areas of the country very dangerous. Hope that helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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