2nd LT Opet and Officer

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Dazscuba said:

Is there any way or where, other records I can find out where, what his wounds were etc?

the diary information is fantastic even if it’s not him it gives a good account of what was happening and how it felt. 

 

Note that Sergeant Alfred Grosch was serving with the 8^th Battalion, so if 2Lt Opet was serving with the 7^th, then its more scene setting than specific. After the personal diary extract it is noted that Sgt Grosch was captured at La Fere on March 22^nd 1918.

 

It may take a bit of work but potentially there is more you could find out about 2/Lt Opet. It would depend on identifying whether there was a German Casualty Clearing Station on the 22^nd/23^rd March 1918 near the place where he was originally buried, and if there was, do their records survive.The Concentration Report attached to the CWGC web-page for 2Lt Opet identifies two other unknown British Officers who were recovered from a communal marked grave at map reference 66c T24 C 7 6 in the Chauny area – an expert here may well be able to track that down for you and orient it in relation to La Fere.

 

The CWGC page for the Chauny Communal Cemetery British Extension lists a number of Cemeteries that were consolidated there. However many relate to dates earlier or later than March 1918 or where the volumes don’t add up – i.e. only one soldier buried there. The ones said to include sufficient burials from March 1918 are:

CHAUNY GERMAN NATIONAL CEMETERY (Aisne), which contained 15 British graves of March-July, 1918.

CRECY-SUR-SERRE GERMAN CEMETERY (Aisne), where 53 British soldiers were buried, mainly by the Germans, in March-September, 1918.

VILLEQUIER-AUMONT GERMAN CEMETERY (Aisne), where six British soldiers were buried in March, 1918.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/34400/chauny-communal-cemetery-british-extension/

 

The Concentration Report shows that the Unknown British Officer, a 2 Lieut. of the London Regiment, was reburied in Grave 1.G.6 while the two unknown British Officers, both Royal Fusiliers who shared his original grave were buried in Graves I.G.7 and 1.G.8 respectively. Sadly neither of those have subsequently been identified as far as I can see. That would have given you two more names which would have increased your chance of identifying whether he died at a German Casualty Clearing Station or on the battlefield.

 

So after that the option is from the German records to try and identify German soldiers who died of wounds in the same period and who were buried nearby – bearing in mind those Cemeteries in turn may have been consolidated elsewhere post war. All of which is a lot of (Very expert) detective work to just identify a German medical facility, the records for which could be lost anyway, and which at best will simply record him as an unknown 2^nd Lieutenant of the London Regiment, although it may give details of his wounds.

44 minutes ago, HolymoleyRE said:

Daz  on his ICRC card, it is annotated as Negatif Envoye, so he was never a PoW in the eyes of the Red Cross, but was an Officer who died in the hands of the Germans, sadly the WD of the 8th Btn appears to be missing any entry for March/April 18, and prior to that he may have been attached to the 2/8th Btn which was absorbed into the 1/8th Btn at the end of Feb!

 

And that’s the crux of it – if he was unknown its unlikely any details would have been fed back beyond the local Military Command. Even if it got back as far as the International Red Cross they would have been unlikely to create a new file  - they didn’t really have anything to reference an enquiry against.

 

My interest in the Post Office Rifles stems from the fact that in April they received a large draft from the disbanded 8^th Norfolks to bring it back up to strength from the horrendous losses suffered in March – one of many units that came close to annihilation. I suspect the Battalion War Diary for the period was either captured or destroyed to prevent it falling into German hands. Possibly worth trying the Brigade War Diary for the period to see if their copy of the Battalion War Diary survived, although that too may have suffered a similar fate.

 

After looking for the Concentration Report I spotted that the CWGC have added a family verification report to 2Lt Opets webpage. I’ve attached the relevant page, but the document signed by the family records him as Isidor Harold, which is the name he is presumably known by in the Jewish faith, and that he was serving with the 8^th Battalion.

 

Good luck with your hunt,

Peter

 

PS - document signed by his Sister. When I was looking for his Probate I came across one for his mother that showed she died in 1917.

[HolymoleyRE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

And that’s the crux of it – if he was unknown its unlikely any details

It's a shame that I cannot find what supports the daily list of Feb 1919, which alludes to him being in German hands, so when the original grave is found yes they are unknown, then something is released (by the Germans?) to ID him...?

[PRC]

20 minutes ago, HolymoleyRE said:

It's a shame that I cannot find what supports the daily list of Feb 1919, which alludes to him being in German hands, so when the original grave is found yes they are unknown, then something is released (by the Germans?) to ID him...?

 

Significant numbers of British PoW's would have been released and returned to the UK by then - it may well be that the information came from interviews with them. Someone like Sergeant Grosch may have been more specific in such an interview and may have referred to 2/Lt Opet being wounded and captured without necessarily having to have known where he was buried or even that he died. If the interviews were anything like the Australian ones I've seen at their archive then it could have provided quite an extensive list of names. The British Government would also have made enquiries of the IRC and received the same sort of "Negatif Envoye" response so the deductive reasoning would be that he "Died in German Hands". The exhumation and subsequent identification of his body in 1921 then gave a final resting place and a tick in the box that the deductive reasoning had been right all along.

 

May be worth looking to see how he was previously classified in the Casualty lists ("Missing" "Wounded and Missing" "Missing believe Prisoner of the Germans", etc) - and of course may be more in his Officers file at Kew.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[HolymoleyRE]

49 minutes ago, PRC said:

 

May be worth looking to see how he was previously classified in the Casualty lists ("Missing" "Wounded and Missing" "Missing believe Prisoner of the Germans", etc) - and of course may be more in his Officers file at Kew.

Good shout in regard PoW Interviews.

 

Just "missing" I am afraid on the WO list.

 

Andy

Edited 8 December , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[Dazscuba]

Gents again thanks and v v interesting reading 

how you get so much info in such a short time is astonishing 

[Colin W Taylor]

Just to add to Andy's statement above regarding AVO's enlisted service.

 

He enlisted in 19th RF in about 24-31 May 1915.  He went to France with the battalion on 14 November 1915.  After trench service during the winter on 1915-6 the battalion was converted into an officer training corps.  He departed to the UK on 18 May 1916 (one of the last to be sent back before final disbandment) meaning he may not have been in the top flight of candidates for commissions, needed further training or was possibly not popular amongst his immediate company officers.  He almost certainly served with No 6 Officer Cadet Battalion in  Balliol College, Oxford during his officer training.  He was gazetted on 25 September 1916.

 

I'd recommend his officer file at Kew for any further details - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1117527. It's on my list but quite a way down.

 

Kind regards

 

Colin 

[Dazscuba]

Colin will I find this gazette thing on Ancestry or FMP? 

Is this Army one or another?

[HolymoleyRE]

 

https://m.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29785/supplement/9938

 

Gazette or LG is the colloquial term fo the London Gazette...amongst many other things an Officers career from commissioning, promotion and resignation/retirement...and awards....best to search by full known name.

 

Soldiers awards are also gazetted...best to search by service number...

 

FMP does have searchible Gazette entries/links....and quite often FWR list the Gazette number  and page for Officer promotions (not 100% reliable) and MiD & Medal Awards like VC, MC, DSO, MM, DCM and MSM...and more.

Edited 8 December , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[Colin W Taylor]

Daz,

 

You can search for his London Gazette entry but it won't provide much detail  short of when he was commissioned as an officer - https://www.thegazette.co.uk/

 

Regards

 

Colin

[PRC]

On ‎07‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 19:53, HarryBrook said:

2nd Lt. Arnold Vincent Officer did die after and operation, as reported in the Hull Daily Mail on 19 May 1917, but notes that he had been wounded.

 

 

Given the date and the circumstances of his wounding, I would suggest might be worth taking a look at the Battalion War Diary for the 3rd May 1917 and the Attack on Oppy Wood aka the Battle of Gavrelle. Four battalions of the Hull "Pals" were involved in an early morning attack which was defeated with heavy casualties.

 

The 12th EYR, were also spotted moving up to their assembly trench and were heavily bombarded. Their War Diary writes:

"The assembling took place in brilliant moonlight over quite unknown country and with four guides (from the 13th EYR). The enemy evidently saw the troops assembling and put up an intensive barrage followed by another one later. This considerably distinguished things and at zero hour, the blackest part of the night, the troops moved forward to the attack.”

The first wave of the 12th EYR entered the German front line trench, which was strongly held, the second wave followed, but was forced to withdraw and eventually the first wave was beaten back out of the enemy line. Under heavy shell fire the 12th EYR to withdraw to their original assembly trench, where they remained all day, under heavy shelling and machine gun fire. They were later relieved during the night, on the 3rd/4th May, by the East Lancashire Regiment.

 

The 12th EYR reported two Officers and seven other ranks killed, 150 other ranks missing and one Officer and 127 other ranks wounded, plus one Officer dying of wounds. The 'Soldiers died in the Great War' records, list 81 other ranks killed in action on the 3rd May with the 12th EYR. The losses suffered by the 12th EYR, were so great, that they resulted in it being reformed into only two companies. The remnants of A & C companies were attached to the 10th EYR and the remains of Companies B and D were sent to the 11th EYR. Although the attack on Oppy Wood was repulsed with many British casualties, the operations did succeed in diverting German attention from the French front.

https://www.facebook.com/TheGreatWar191418/posts/1039205296211721

 May be a co-incidence but the bits I've high-lighted would seem to tie up with the newspaper report.

 

Cheers,

Peter

Edited 9 December , 2017 by PRC