151 "Fine Old Soldiers" joined 10 February 1915

[rolt968]

Looking for something else in the war diary of 1 Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, I noticed that 151 men joined from 4 Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders on 10 February 1915 at Dickebusch.

They are described as a "fine lot of old soldiers". They were inspected by the brigadier on 12 February 1915 and he was pleased with them. The author of the diary comments that if anything they were on the old side.

 

I was a little surprised that "old soldiers" were still available as replacements as late as February 1915.

 

However 1 A&SH only arrived in France on 20 December 1914 and since they had come from India (via England) were at full strength.  So perhaps fewer replacements had been required.

 

Also A&SH had both 3 and 4 A&SH to supply replacements.

 

There are two questions:

Who were these men likely to have been? Army reservists, special reservists, former reservists who had volunteered?

 

4 A&SH was an Extra Reserve Battalion. The original intention of the Extra Reserve battalions (as I understand it) was that they should be deployed overseas as complete units. When was it decided (or became effective) that they would not go overseas and their men would become available as replacements for regular battalions?

 

RM

[Guest]

The Reserve Battalions consolidated surplus regulars, Army Reservist, Special Reservists, new recruits and re-enlisted men as well as recovered wounded and sick. They had dual roles; UK key point defence and training reinforcements. The arrivals in Feb 1915 could have been one of;

 

1. Army Reservists. When sending out reinforcements the men who had left the Army most recently were sent first. By end 1914 the pools of Reserves were beginning to dry up, and the oldest of the Reservists were coming through. The very oldest or least 'current' were "3 & 9" men.

2. Special Reservists. The age profile of Special Reservists tended to be reasonably young, so I think this is less likely.

3. TIme expired re-enlisted men. An Army Order in Sep 1914 permitted ex soldiers to re-enlist. Many made it to the Western Front after a short period of retraining.

4. Regulars. After mobilisation the unfit and old were sent to the Reserve battalions. If the regiment was running out of Reserves they may well have sent out men who were previously considered too old. It is worth noting that the infantry was running out of trained reinforcements in March 1915. 

 

the 1914-15 Star medal roll might provide the exact answer. You should be able to identify the men who were sent out from a disembarkation date close to their arrival date with the Battalion. Their Army Numbers should make it possible to identify which of the above they were. They may well have been a mix of the above. MG.

 

Edit. The medal roll shows large drafts towards the end of Dec 1914, none (I think) in Jan 1915 and too late in Feb 1915 (19th) for the arrival on 10th. The Dec drafts are a complete mix of all of the above, but importantly they contain men with numbers issued in August and September. While they could be raw recruits accelerated through training, I suspect there will be a number of re-enlisted men who would,have been issued new numbers. 

 

The Argyll's numbering system is one of the most complex as the regular battalions started a new roll in 1908 so you have men with 10,xxxx and three digit men who enlisted within a year of each other's representing the end of one roll and the beginning of another. Separate to these men there are men in the 2xxx series who were post declaration recruits in addition to S/ prefix men and 3/ and 4/ prefix me... So essentially you have men from SIX different rolls all arriving at the same time. Unless one trawls the whole roll (it is massive as all their TF battalions deployed as well as the reinforcements in 1915) it will be impossible to say with any real certainty. Using the Mk 1 eyeball I would lean towards time expired re-enlisted men as the regulars coming through enlisted in 1908ish and were either extended service or Army Reservists I.e. not 3 & 9 men....I hope that makes sense. MG

 

Edited 8 December , 2017 by Guest

[rolt968]

On ‎07‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 00:59, QGE said:

The Reserve Battalions consolidated surplus regulars, Army Reservist, Special Reservists, new recruits and re-enlisted men as well as recovered wounded and sick. They had dual roles; UK key point defence and training reinforcements. The arrivals in Feb 1915 could have been one of;

1. Army Reservists. When sending out reinforcements the men who had left the Army most recently were sent first. By end 1914 the pools of Reserves were beginning to dry up, and the oldest of the Reservists were coming through. The very oldest or least 'current' were "3 & 9" men.

2. Special Reservists. The age profile of Special Reservists tended to be reasonably young, so I think this is less likely.

3. TIme expired re-enlisted men. An Army Order in Sep 1914 permitted ex soldiers to re-enlist. Many made it to the Western Front after a short period of retraining.

4. Regulars. After mobilisation the unfit and old were sent to the Reserve battalions. If the regiment was running out of Reserves they may well have sent out men who were previously considered too old. It is worth noting that the infantry was running out of trained reinforcements in March 1915. 

 

the 1914-15 Star medal roll might provide the exact answer. You should be able to identify the men who were sent out from a disembarkation date close to their arrival date with the Battalion. Their Army Numbers should make it possible to identify which of the above they were. They may well have been a mix of the above. MG.

 

Edit. The medal roll shows large drafts towards the end of Dec 1914, none (I think) in Jan 1915 and too late in Feb 1915 (19th) for the arrival on 10th. The Dec drafts are a complete mix of all of the above, but importantly they contain men with numbers issued in August and September. While they could be raw recruits accelerated through training, I suspect there will be a number of re-enlisted men who would,have been issued new numbers. 

 

The Argyll's numbering system is one of the most complex as the regular battalions started a new roll in 1908 so you have men with 10,xxxx and three digit men who enlisted within a year of each other's representing the end of one roll and the beginning of another. Separate to these men there are men in the 2xxx series who were post declaration recruits in addition to S/ prefix men and 3/ and 4/ prefix me... So essentially you have men from SIX different rolls all arriving at the same time. Unless one trawls the whole roll (it is massive as all their TF battalions deployed as well as the reinforcements in 1915) it will be impossible to say with any real certainty. Using the Mk 1 eyeball I would lean towards time expired re-enlisted men as the regulars coming through enlisted in 1908ish and were either extended service or Army Reservists I.e. not 3 & 9 men....I hope that makes sense. MG

 

Thank you for all of that. It certainly makes sense to me.

 

It is interesting to notice the slightly differing views of the brigadier and the adjutant (or CO).

RM

[Guest]

56 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Thank you for all of that. It certainly makes sense to me.

 

It is interesting to notice the slightly differing views of the brigadier and the adjutant (or CO).

RM

 

 

On further investigation there are men on the 1914-15 Star Roll who disembarked on 2nd Feb 1915. They include a number of newly enlisted men who appear to be reasonably old... for example No. S/2390 William John Pettigrew who died of wounds in March 1915 aged 32.

 

There are 19 men who died in France and Flanders with the 1st Bn A&SH in 1915 who were aged 30 of more. Five of them were Special Reservists and nine of them were S/ prefix (enlisted after the start of the War). Given they enlisted in 1914 and are in their 30s, it is distinctly possible some or all were time-expired re-enlisted men. Their average age was 34 years and 6 months. The oldest was 51.  While not conclusive, it is at least consistent with the theory. Note that enough old soldiers re-enlisted to provide on average a few hundred men per infantry regiment. 

 

A man who joined aged 17 and had served 12 years and 'time expired' would be 29...so anyone 29 or more could potentially have been time-expired and re-enlisted. 

 

MG

Edited 8 December , 2017 by Guest

[Perth Digger]

If being 'old' meant that you could be in your early thirties, it hardly is an accurate classification, I'd have thought. Mature, yes; likely to be married, yes; but old? A few months later the 11th Royal West Kent Regiment was happily accepting men in their late 30s and early 40s without any previous military training. Maybe old just meant former, grizzled perhaps but no white beards?

 

Mike

[rolt968]

2 hours ago, QGE said:

 

 

On further investigation there are men on the 1914-15 Star Roll who disembarked on 2nd Feb 1915. They include a number of newly enlisted men who appear to be reasonably old... for example No. S/2390 William John Pettigrew who died of wounds in March 1915 aged 32.

 

There are 19 men who died in France and Flanders with the 1st Bn A&SH in 1915 who were aged 30 of more. Five of them were Special Reservists and nine of them were S/ prefix (enlisted after the start of the War). Given they enlisted in 1914 and are in their 30s, it is distinctly possible some or all were time-expired re-enlisted men. Their average age was 34 years and 6 months. The oldest was 51.  While not conclusive, it is at least consistent with the theory. Note that enough old soldiers re-enlisted to provide on average a few hundred men per infantry regiment. 

 

A man who joined aged 17 and had served 12 years and 'time expired' would be 29...so anyone 29 or more could potentially have been time-expired and re-enlisted. 

 

MG

Thank you very much.

That is splendid.

The men in their mid thirties would have looked fine, but a man in his fifties might be what the adjutant noticed.

 

RM

[Guest]

On 12/8/2017 at 13:47, Perth Digger said:

If being 'old' meant that you could be in your early thirties, it hardly is an accurate classification, I'd have thought. Mature, yes; likely to be married, yes; but old? A few months later the 11th Royal West Kent Regiment was happily accepting men in their late 30s and early 40s without any previous military training. Maybe old just meant former, grizzled perhaps but no white beards?

 

Mike

 

Male life expectancy in 1913 was 51.5 years. Old meant something different to what it means now. 

 

In 1913*

The average age of a Regular infantryman at Home was..................23 years and 11 months

The average age of a Regular infantryman Overseas was ...............24 years and 10 months.

The average age of an Army reservist was ...........................................31 years and 2 months

The average age of a Special Reservists was......................................23 years and 8 months

 

Assuming 40% Regular 60% Army Reserves for the BEF in Aug 1914 on disembarking;

The average age of the 2nd Bn A&SH (19th Inf Bde) was..................28 years and 3 months.

 

By contrast the overseas battalions arrived at full strength and required very few (if any)Reservists.

The average age of the 1st Bn A&SH (81st Inf Bde) was..................24 years and 10 months

 

If the February 1915 draft contained large numbers of re-enlisted men, they would all be over 30 and some substantially more. The small sample of casualties in 1915 of men aged 30 or above was 34 years of age or just over nine years older than the average man in the 1st Bn A&SH. If the average was 34 and the minimum age for a re-enlisted man was 30, for every 30 year old there would be a man who was 38 (on average). .... Bearing in mind the older serving soldiers were more likely to be NCOs, the average private soldier was more likely to be in his very early 20s. So a reinforcement draft of privates in their mid 30s would make them around 13 -14 years older than the Rank & File. 

 

Put another way, of all the potential sources of men, the time expired re-enlisted men would be the oldest (on average) by a very long way. While all groups contained older men, the re-enlisted men would have the highest proportions over the age of 30. At the time the age limit of re-enlisted men was higher that for raw recruits. While many were diverted to train K1 and K2, thousands made it to France in 1914-1915. Some 64,000 time-expired infantry men re-enlisted before 1st Oct 1914 - enough to provide over 400 for each line infantry regiment. 

 

The other factor is that the 1st Bn required 700 Reservists to mobilize. At the start of the War the A&SH only had 929 Army Reservists**, therefore there were only around 200 Army Reservists left (assuming not all were fit). Between Mons and 2nd Feb 1915 All the available Reservists would have been taken by subsequent reinforcement drafts. Each draft would have increasingly larger proportions of Special Reservists. The A&SH was fortunate in this it had an Extra Reserve Battalion (4th Bn) in addition to the Special reserve Battalion (3rd Bn). Immediately after mobilization all categories of surplus men were consolidated into these battalions; returns show 1,223 trained Reserves (all types including the 200 odd Army Reservists) In addition there were another 2,000 men at various stages of training. Most battalions in  BEF that disembarked in Aug 1914 received around 1,000 reinforcements by 2nd Nov 1914 (cut off date for the 1914 Star) meaning the 'fully trained and effective' Army Reservists and Special Reservists would have more or less been used up by the year end. Intermixed with these reinforcements were recovered sick, injured and wounded, which stretched the resources a bit further into the new year.

 

By December 1914 most infantry battalions' reinforcements drafts were almost all Special Reservists supplemented with post declaration recruits who had been through training.  If SR men averaged 24 years and the re-enlisted men were 34 years old (on average), it is a stark difference.  It is difficult to differentiate between raw recruits and time-expired re-enlisted men as the latter groups were all given new Army numbers. The easiest way to cross check is to look at the CWGC data. In this case men with low S/ prefix numbers killed in 1915 are mostly over the age of 30, which to me fits with the theory that this sub-group was dominated by re-enlisted men.

 

It is not a water-tight argument, but it is an 'informed' guess based on the forensics of a number of line infantry regiments 1914 Star and 1914-15 Star medal rolls. There are other threads that go into minute detail on the composition of reinforcement drafts. 

 

MG

 

*GARBA 1913 page 88. Table 4: Ages of the Non Commissioned officers and Men  (etc) on 1st October 1914

** the A&SH ranked 62 of 69 Line Infantry Regiments in terms of the number of Army Reservists per paired battalions. The Average was 1,088 meaning the A&SH had 15% fewer Army reservists than the average line infantry regiment. Source: WO 114

 

 

 

 

Edited 10 December , 2017 by Guest