Pattern 14 Equipment Study -- and cap badge ID

[4thGordons]

Sorting through photos I rediscovered an album which appears to show one extended family's involvement in the war.

Among the photos are these nice images of Pattern 14 Leather equipment being worn / demonstrated for the camera (I think the father of the family may have been the photographer) by the two (I assume) brothers.

The rifle here is a Magazine Lee Metford MkI* (see deep profile magazine, grasping grooves in stock and unit marking disk on butt)

The SD jacket on the second chap is interesting in that it appears to have non metallic buttons (the first man wears a simplified pattern SD Jacket)

 

Can anyone identify the cap badge for me? Here are a couple of views - the last one with the contrast hiked to show the outline more clearly (it seems oddly asymmetrical unless it is a trick of the light) I am not certain the two men are wearing the same badge?

 

Chris

 

 

[GWF1967]

52 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Sorting through photos I rediscovered an album which appears to show one extended family's involvement in the war.

Among the photos are these nice images of Pattern 14 Leather equipment being worn / demonstrated for the camera (I think the father of the family may have been the photographer) by the two (I assume) brothers.

The rifle here is a Magazine Lee Metford MkI* (see deep profile magazine, grasping grooves in stock and unit marking disk on butt)

The SD jacket on the second chap is interesting in that it appears to have non metallic buttons (the first man wears a simplified pattern SD Jacket)

 

Can anyone identify the cap badge for me? Here are a couple of views - the last one with the contrast hiked to show the outline more clearly (it seems oddly asymmetrical unless it is a trick of the light) I am not certain the two men are wearing the same badge?

 

Chris

 

 

Artists Rifles.

[4thGordons]

Thank you.

From what I understand that would also fit with what appears to be pictures of the same men later as officers (at least one of which is in a rifle regiment)

 

The album is interesting as there appears to feature to be a sister (?) who served as a nurse and the family matriarch who appears in numerous pictures and a number of other individuals including a NZ soldier and a naval officer - almost all taken in the garden of what appears to be a fairly substantial house (as here).

Thanks again

Chris

 

[GWF1967]

27 minutes ago, 4thGordons said:

Thank you.

From what I understand that would also fit with what appears to be pictures of the same men later as officers (at least one of which is in a rifle regiment)

 

The album is interesting as there appears to feature to be a sister (?) who served as a nurse and the family matriarch who appears in numerous pictures and a number of other individuals including a NZ soldier and a naval officer - almost all taken in the garden of what appears to be a fairly substantial house (as here).

Thanks again

Chris

 

You're welcome; thanks for posting.

[Andrew Upton]

3 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

 

 

Nice shot of the unusual  "Bottle, water, aluminium (Canadian pattern)" in use as well there - readily identifiable by the slightly odd shape that's a terrible fit in the standard 1914 Pattern waterbottle carrier. More details on Karkee Web:

 

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1914/components/1914_equipment_carriers.html

[4thGordons]

Good eye! Totally missed that.

Thank you.

Chris

[RFA Gunner]

3 hours ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

Nice shot of the unusual  "Bottle, water, aluminium (Canadian pattern)" in use as well there - readily identifiable by the slightly odd shape that's a terrible fit in the standard 1914 Pattern waterbottle carrier. More details on Karkee Web:

 

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1914/components/1914_equipment_carriers.html

Nice one, I really enjoy learning about little details like that.

[Pete_C]

7 hours ago, 4thGordons said:

Good eye! Totally missed that.

Thank you.

Chris

Fabulous images Chris, thanks for posting. He's also wearing the water bottle carrier back to front so maybe a first outing in his new kit. 

Timely for me as I've just finished putting together my own set of Pattern 14 after many decades spent chasing components. All genuine and British made apart from the shockingly poor quality US made entrenching tool head carrier and haversack - both 'Cooks 1915'. The leather fittings on the unissued haversack are wafer thin. The haversack's sitting too high but the position is determined by the longstanding position of the large buckles on the braces 

Perhaps one for another topic, but I'd also mention that the 1907 is a pre war Wilkinson 'commercial', sold 'in the white' to the gun trade for refinishing and resale to customers. Not the right one for this set but it's my only spare at the moment. 

All the best,

 

Pete

[Sepoy]

Regarding the first cap badge it is the 28th (County of London) Battalion, London Regiment (Artist's Rifles). The second may be the 5th (City of London) Battalion, London Regiment (London Rifle Brigade).

Hope this helps

Sepoy

[Dave66]

4 hours ago, Pete_C said:

 

Timely for me as I've just finished putting together my own set of Pattern 14 after many decades spent chasing components. All genuine and British made apart from the shockingly poor quality US made entrenching tool head carrier and haversack - both 'Cooks 1915'. The leather fittings on the unissued haversack are wafer thin. The haversack's sitting too high but the position is determined by the longstanding position of the large buckles on the braces 

Perhaps one for another topic, but I'd also mention that the 1907 is a pre war Wilkinson 'commercial', sold 'in the white' to the gun trade for refinishing and resale to customers. Not the right one for this set but it's my only spare at the moment. 

All the best,

 

Pete

 

Pete,

That's a fine set you've managed to put together...I envy you.

I have a number of P14 bayonet frogs, and can agree that some of the U.S. Manufactured equipment was made of shockingly thin leather, I have one stamped on the rear of the helve strap "training only" as they wouldn't have survived long in the front line.

 

Dave.

[Pete_C]

29 minutes ago, Dave66 said:

 

Pete,

That's a fine set you've managed to put together...I envy you.

I have a number of P14 bayonet frogs, and can agree that some of the U.S. Manufactured equipment was made of shockingly thin leather, I have one stamped on the rear of the helve strap "training only" as they wouldn't have survived long in the front line.

 

Dave.

 

Thanks Dave. From my own limited observations it would appear that Cooks was the main US source of poor quality leather equipment, and easily distinguished by their use of double capped rivets rather than hose rivets. Over the years I've had a few bits made by RH Long, another of the big US makers, which were of reasonable quality. I've seen Cooks' packs and haversacks marked 'training purposes only' on the web but never seen it marked on a leather component - I'd be very interested to see a photo of your frog if you have one. 

 

Pete

[Dave66]

1 hour ago, Pete_C said:

 

Thanks Dave. From my own limited observations it would appear that Cooks was the main US source of poor quality leather equipment, and easily distinguished by their use of double capped rivets rather than hose rivets. Over the years I've had a few bits made by RH Long, another of the big US makers, which were of reasonable quality. I've seen Cooks' packs and haversacks marked 'training purposes only' on the web but never seen it marked on a leather component - I'd be very interested to see a photo of your frog if you have one. 

 

Pete

 

Pete, 

The one I have is by e.c.simmons using their keen cutter logo and dated 1915, stamped on the grained side of the helve strap...also with the typical domed rivets. The reverse of the strap has the partial stamp R TRAINING....read somewhere the poorer quality leather was stamped for training purposes only so obviously poorly struck.

 

[Dave66]

Sorry, 

photos never loaded...here we go.

 

regards,

 

Dave.

[max7474]

A great picture of a soldier of the Artists Rifles the 28th Bn London Regt.

Edited 3 December , 2017 by max7474

[Pete_C]

2 hours ago, Dave66 said:

 

Pete, 

The one I have is by e.c.simmons using their keen cutter logo and dated 1915, stamped on the grained side of the helve strap...also with the typical domed rivets. The reverse of the strap has the partial stamp R TRAINING....read somewhere the poorer quality leather was stamped for training purposes only so obviously poorly struck.

 

Thanks for that Dave, very interesting. I have a Simmons Keen Cutter belt which isn't so bad but it was only after I'd acquired a couple of good British made belts that I became aware of the stark difference in the thickness and quality of the leather. I don't know if the poorer quality US made equipment was always intended for training purposes only, or if it was relegated following poor performance in the field. I recall a damning account from the front of leather tabs tearing away from the rear of packs when placed under load - I'm guessing that was the US made kit. That said, I think the whole concept and design of 1914 Pattern Equipment was badly executed from the outset, regardless of who made it, and it's so rare today because the vast majority of it was 'reduced to produce' in France before the end of the war. 

 

Handsome bayonet by the way. 

 

Pete

[Dave66]

Im sure the equipment was always intended for front line use in the early stages of the war when equipment was scarce and essential to equip the ever expanding armed forces...hence using any available manufacturer to make up the shortfalls... it was only after numerous failures later on that some of the less substantial items would have been designatedfor training purposes only.

Just out of interest, are your items stamped cooks or cook?, carter suggests frogs marked cook 1915 are British.

 

all the best,

 

Dave.

[Pete_C]

1 hour ago, Dave66 said:

Im sure the equipment was always intended for front line use in the early stages of the war when equipment was scarce and essential to equip the ever expanding armed forces...hence using any available manufacturer to make up the shortfalls... it was only after numerous failures later on that some of the less substantial items would have been designatedfor training purposes only.

Just out of interest, are your items stamped cooks or cook?, carter suggests frogs marked cook 1915 are British.

 

all the best,

 

Dave.

Dave, just checked and you're right it's 'Cook' not 'Cooks'. But Carter is wrong - Cook were a US maker and that style of rivet is peculiar to US made kit. Amongst other sources, we have Karkee Web and Chris Pollendine's 1915 book to confirm this. Additionally, I've only ever seen the Cook name accompanied by a 1915 date. 

 

Cheers

 

Pete

[Dave66]

Pete,

Most interesting and many thanks for that, must update my notes...all these little snippets are most valuable.The book is on the shopping list along with a couple of others...and a helve carrier that doesn't cost an arm and a leg, if and when finance and family permits!!

 

 

Dave.

 

 

[JMB1943]

On 12/3/2017 at 04:52, Pete_C said:

Fabulous images Chris, thanks for posting. He's also wearing the water bottle carrier back to front so maybe a first outing in his new kit. 

 

All the best,

 

Pete

 

Pete_C,

 

This my first foray into equipment, so I have a couple of questions regarding unfamiliar objects.

 

All of the closures on the various pieces shown in your photos have them on the outside, away from the body; similarly the bottle carrier release strap is on the outside.

Why do you describe this as being "back to front" ?

 

Also, the bottle carrier has no apparent means of attachment to any other piece; are the straps lost in the dark background somewhere ?

 

Regards,

JMB

 

[4thGordons]

3 minutes ago, JMB1943 said:

All of the closures on the various pieces shown in your photos have them on the outside, away from the body; similarly the bottle carrier release strap is on the outside.

Why do you describe this as being "back to front" ?

 

 

On the period photo I posted I believe PeteC is correct that the waterbottle carrier is buckled on with the release button/stud on the inside (towards the body) rather than on the outside as shown in the set photos.

I think what you are seeing are the two rivets that attach the fixed end of the strap, not the single release stud.

Chris

[JMB1943]

Chris,

 

Many thanks, and I really must pay closer attention !!

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

[Pete_C]

On 11/01/2018 at 19:02, JMB1943 said:

 

Pete_C,

 

Also, the bottle carrier has no apparent means of attachment to any other piece; are the straps lost in the dark background somewhere ?

 

Regards,

JMB

 

 

Sorry, just picking this up. The Pattern 1914 equipment was designed to have the same flexibility as the Pattern 1908 web equipment when it came to carrying the water bottle, haversack and entrenching tool.  The ends of the 2 braces provided 4 of the attachment points and the belt and the 2 ammunition pouches provided 4 more by way of extension straps. This enabled, for instance, the entrenching tool and water bottle to be carried together on the right hip (as illustrated on my set), or the entrenching tool could be worn at the rear as seen in the opening post photo. The w/b and e/t carriers, and the haversack each had two 1” brass buckles to attach to brace or extension strap ends. To further complicate matters, the belt also had 2 further diagonal extension straps for attachment to the bottom of the haversack when set up in fighting order configuration (see my set) or the pack when set up for marching order (opening photos). In marching order configuration, the haversack would be moved to the left hip on top of the bayonet. 

 

Cheers

 

Pete

Edited 19 January , 2018 by Pete_C

[Chasemuseum]

You can see the detail in the fitting instructions for P14, reproduced on the Karkee Web, web site at http://karkeeweb.com/patterns/1914/1914_fitting_instructions.html  

 

Anyone who wants a copy without the water mark, please PM me, I am happy to provide. 

 

I am actually very pleased that Karkee Web ultimately put their water mark over the copy I gave them.  Of the people who downloaded it before then,  a dealer in the UK who supplies re-enactors is charging GBP5 per copy and someone else sold the file to a USA library website where it is on a pay per view service.

 

Cheers

Ross

[bigred]

I suppose the dark buttons could be rifle brigade black buttons ?

[Grovetown]

On 03/12/2017 at 15:19, Pete_C said:

I've seen Cooks' packs and haversacks marked 'training purposes only' on the web but never seen it marked on a leather component - I'd be very interested to see a photo of your frog if you have one. 

Pete

Very belatedly as came across this thread for the first time in a very long time researching something else, but herewith images of a 1914 pattern pouch marked 'For Training Purposes Only'. British made if I recall, although now resides with another forum member.

Cheers,

GT.