Who cares about the Middlesex Regt in WW1 now?

[Emily Gillatt-Ball]

I'm trying to find someone 'in charge' of the history of the Middlesex Regt, someone who might have war diaries or records of soldiers other than just a list of service numbers and what medals they won, but there doesn't seem to be a website or regimental museum or archive. The 4th Battalion was amalgamated into the Queen's Regt, but I'm interested in the 6th Bn and there's nothing on their site anyway. Any ideas on finding someone who still cares about Middlesex Regt history?

[Derek Black]

Hi Emily,

 

According to other posts on the forum, the National Army Museum hold the records of the Middlesex Regiment.

 

War Diaries are on Ancestry or the National Archives to view.
However the 6th btn as a reserve battalion never left the UK, so no diary was kept. Long, long trail link.
 

Cheers,

Derek.

[Howard]

I extracted all I could find on 1/Middlesex from an orginal copy of The Die-hards in the Great War by Everard Wyrall, now available as a reprint.

It is effectively a regimental history, Wyrall extracted information from all the war diaries he could find of all the battalions often quoting verbatim.

Sadly the 6th does not appear in a quick check of the index so as Derek says, it does not seem they have a war diary. In the thumbnail list of activity shown as an appendix, the 6th is not even listed.

 

Howard

[Chris_B]

Emily,

 

Are there any particular individual or individuals that are of interest  you?  This puzzle about the 6th Middx. seems never to have been resolved: 

 

Howard, 

 

Pleased to have found your website again. I lost sight of it after it was moved. 

 

[kenf48]

I don't think it's a puzzle, the 6th Battalion was a Reserve Battalion that was engaged in coastal defence duties in Kent.  There are a number of CWGC burials in Fort Pitt Cemetery which is associated with the garrison at Rochester, Kent and presumably where they were based, though units would have been dispersed up and down the coast.  Coastal defence battalions in 1917 were typically, but not exclusively, formed from men who had completed basic training but were too young for active service overseas, men whose fitness category meant they were only suitable for garrison duty at home or abroad and those awaiting a posting to an active service unit after a period at the Command Depot.

 

As already noted no active service overseas therefore no medals for men who only served with that Battalion, no war diary and no history, only deaths as recorded at CWGC.

 

As for those who died at sea in the other thread, the thread predates the online medal rolls/service records.  Since they became available it's possible to analyse the records more readily and it was quite common for men's records to show their Reserve or Depot unit in these records in all theatres.  Presumably these men were on the way to India where they would be deployed at the IBD.  For record purposes they could not be 'orphans'.  There are 20 men from the 6th Bn associated with the sinking of the Aragon.  I've only looked at a couple of 'Soldiers Effects' records but they also show the 6th Bn.  So clearly these mens' records (the individuals may have known where they were going) for the Army's purpose showed them as still attached to the 6th (Reserve) Battalion.

 

As has been mentioned it might be helpful if the OP told us if there were any particular individuals who prompted the query.

 

Ken

Edited 3 December , 2017 by kenf48

[Emily Gillatt-Ball]

Just checked my great grandfather's letters again - he trained at Chatham in the 6th, but was transferred to the 20th Middx (41st I.B.D.) before he went to France. His name was Herbert Jollyman.

 

He mentions quite a few other men in the 6th, but only by surnames, so I was hoping to identify them, especially his best buddies Kemsley and Rickcord - but the Ancestry records only show the end-of-war rank and details. By then Herbert had been transferred several times, had several different service numbers and ended in the RAF so he won't appear in the Middx records.

 

He was a Home Service man but they sent him anyway because he was a trained machine gunner. He got the usual Pip, Squeak & Wilfrid but no other medals, as he was mainly behind the lines.

 

btw He definitely wasn't one of the ones who died at sea, as he survived the War.

Edited 3 December , 2017 by Emily Gillatt-Ball

[kenf48]

Corporal Norman Bolton Kemsley (G/23684) was discharged to a Commission in the Royal Army Service Corps on the 26th July 1918.  He first served in a theatre of war in the 20th Middlesex but unlike your great grandfather, who you say has the 14-15 Star, he did not go on active service overseas until after the 31st December 1915.  This is what we would expect as the 20th Middlesex did not land in France until June 1916, with the 121st Brigade, 40th Division.  There are a couple of us on here who have an interest in that Division, though my interest is the 14th Argylls.

There is a Divisional history.  

Assuming that is the Kemsley to whom you refer, which seems likely as like your g-grandfather he served in the 20th Battalion, he has some officer's papers at TNA.  These have not been digitised and have been weeded so you never know what you are going to get. To view them you will need to either visit Kew or pay to have them copied.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C709266

 

There is only one Rickcord in the Rolls and he served in the RFA going overseas in 1915, there are a number of Rickard(s) in the Middlesex but none leap out as your g-grandfather's pal.

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

Edited 3 December , 2017 by kenf48

[Chris_Baker]

Are you referring to Pte 23675 Herbert Jollyman? His RAF record says that he went to France in February 1917 and I could find no other evidence that he had gone overseas earlier than that. As such, he did not qualify for the three campaign medals mentioned above; just two.

 

The number implies commencement of service on or near to 24 June 1916, and at first with 6th (Reserve) Battalion. There are some others numbered nearby who were then posted to the 1st (Home Service) Garrison Battalion.

 

Edited 3 December , 2017 by Chris_Baker

[Emily Gillatt-Ball]

Yes, that is the right service number, so I must be wrong about Herbert's medals. Where did you find his RAF record, please?

 

He did indeed arrive in France with Kemsley in Feb 1917 - and they didn't exactly get a warm welcome! 

 

"After a very hard march we arrived at the camp. It was a pretty stiff climb & the roads in places were like ice, the snow had been trodden so smooth. The camp stands high & the wind was icy cold & sleeping in tents was not overheating! Kemsley & I got together again so we made up a bed together – only two blankets were allowed so we laid on one & had the other 3 over us as well as our overcoats & we slept so warm as if we had been in barracks. Of course we did not undress, only removing our puttees & boots.

When we awoke in the morning found our boots had frozen to the floor – fortunately the tent was boarded, and putting our warm feet into the cold boots sooned cooled them. We couldn't get a wash as the water supply was frozen, consequently no shave. I just rubbed my hands in the snow and that was all the wash I got."

 

I'm not sure if Kemsley got promoted, although he was certainly the right calibre of man - an auctioneer before the war and I think age about 35, not a youngster as his eldest son is about 11. He was another Home Service man. They were together initially as Privates while training at Chatham, but on 26 Mar 1917, Herbert writes: "6 were warned for a draft. Kemsley is amongst them also Jonathan" and that's the last we hear of him in Herbert's letters. These are the others he mentions at Chatham:

 

Hayden – a youngster, lives at Henham near Stansted, Essex

James – 'Sunny Jim' – an old soldier, went to Chattenden

Sears

Lt Williams – had been to the Front, wounded 3 times

Rapkin

Mills (was at Chattenden)

Kidd (distant relative of Kemsley) - married

Harris - young, married, wife has consumption of the throat & died Dec 1916

Foley – trained as NCO

Wells

Palmer - banker

Hounsell – from Bristol, worked for Fry's, Colman's, now living Muswell Hill, trained as NCO

Boyce – married

Rickcord – married with 2 kids age 10 and 3

Temblett

Jonathan

 

I don't think that can be the right Rickcord - he was definitely in the Army, not the Navy, and in Dec 1916 he was billeted with Herbert in Chatham so couldn't have gone abroad in 1915.

 

Thanks very much to all for your replies - your efforts are greatly appreciated!

 

Edited 4 December , 2017 by Emily Gillatt-Ball

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, Emily Gillatt-Ball said:

Yes, that is the right service number, so I must be wrong about Herbert's medals. Where did you find his RAF record, please?

 

 

 

Glad we got that one sorted, to use the contemporary slang Pte Jollyman's medals were 'Mutt and Jeff'. 

 

The RAF Records are on Find My Past, I'm waiting for Santa to renew my subscription so can't help you there but no doubt Chris will be along soon.  The Rickcord I mentioned, and I agree it can't be him, was in the Royal Field Artillery not the Navy.  Chris is the founder of the forum and author of the Long Long Trail (link top right) where there is a lot of information on researching a soldier and where most of us started.  At the very least if you have a good look around, especially the section on 'Researching a Soldier' it will help you to understand the formation and structure of the Army during the war and help to get accustomed to language and abbreviations used here.

 

Kemsley was promoted and commissioned  into the ASC and held the substantive rank of 2/Lieutenant, he may have been given a temporary promotion. As you say they probably joined together as their regimental numbers are only nine apart.

 

 It's quite possible that many of the men you mention did not serve overseas, therefore no medals or like Kemsley and Jollyman ended the war in completely different units.  Kemsley was relatively easy to find as it's an unusual name but many of the others would be very difficult, even Hounsell which seems quite an unusual name apparently isn't and there are dozens of them!

 

Keep digging, fascinating account of his arrival in France. You can download the war diary of the 20th Middlesex from TNA

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354300

or view it on Ancestry if you subscribe February 1917 starts here

 

Ken

 

 

Edited 4 December , 2017 by kenf48

[Emily Gillatt-Ball]

On 12/2/2017 at 09:43, Howard said:

I extracted all I could find on 1/Middlesex from an orginal copy of The Die-hards in the Great War by Everard Wyrall, now available as a reprint.

It is effectively a regimental history, Wyrall extracted information from all the war diaries he could find of all the battalions often quoting verbatim.

 

Sadly the 6th does not appear in a quick check of the index so as Derek says, it does not seem they have a war diary. In the thumbnail list of activity shown as an appendix, the 6th is not even listed.

 

Howard

 

Thanks for this suggestion, Howard - I was a bit shocked to find the book cost £38 + postage, as I felt it would be sloppy research not to read it, but I've now found an ebook version on Amazon for 99p, so I'm happy again!

[Howard]

1 hour ago, Emily Gillatt-Ball said:

 

Thanks for this suggestion, Howard - I was a bit shocked to find the book cost £38 + postage, as I felt it would be sloppy research not to read it, but I've now found an ebook version on Amazon for 99p, so I'm happy again!

£38+postage is a ripoff, no author or research fees, just a copy of an out of copyright book. £3.80 would be better. I was lucky, although I paid £100 for my original copy, when it came I found it was once owned by my Grandfather's CO, Col. Page. Not important as history, but nice.

 

Good luck with your reseach.

 

Howard