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4thGordons

German Trench Mortar ID

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4thGordons

On a recent family trip I spied this Trench Mortar outside a Legion Post in Alabama. The internet seems undecided about its identity so can the collective wisdom of the forum settle it? Apologies for the poor pics I only had my phone with me: I tried to cover most angles and every number/inscription I could find.

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Chris

 

IMG_0060.JPG

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The Prussian

Hello Chris!

It´s a "25cm schwerer Minenwerfer alter Art" (25cm heavy trench mortar old pattern)

cal. 250mm

weight: 570kg

s. Minenwerfer 250mm (b.11.Inf.Div., Vebandsabzeichen).JPG

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4thGordons
23 minutes ago, The Prussian said:

Hello Chris!

It´s a "25cm schwerer Minenwerfer alter Art" (25cm heavy trench mortar old pattern)

cal. 250mm

weight: 570kg

 

 

Thanks! I thought it was a bit too heavy to put in the boot of my Jetta! Ah well..... - thank you for the ID.

I always feel these sorts of relics deserve a bit more protection than sitting outside occasionally being covered with silver paint!

Chris

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ForeignGong

I agree, it deserves better treatment than that.

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new3.2

Chris- A number of us have tried to by this mortar ( have been going by it for the last 30 years).  I had hoped they would part with it once they got the that M-60 tank but...  It is an active post and they do not seem to be in any financial bind.  A rare mortar over here.

new3.2

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4thGordons

Ken - did you see Jan's post above? It might be worth dropping him a line prior to your trip!

 

I was going to email you about the mortar but it slipped my mind. I still have my heart set on the British Artillery piece in Nokomis! (also silver!)

Chris

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greatspywar

Thanks Chris, I have just received a PM from Ken. 

 

Cheers!

 

Jan

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Guns1418

Hello Chris

 

I'm Bernard Plumier, the webmaster of www.passioncompassion1418.com whose one of the targets is to reference as much surviving WW1 guns and mortars all around the worlds (together with some other facts about artillery fuzes, grenades, etc...)

 

Your pictures really interest me since I do not believe this old Alabama mortar is referenced in the database http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Canons/

 

Would you agree allowing me posting these pictures on your behalf on the website ? I would also need the exact location (town) of this Legion Post. 

 

By the way, the schwere (big - 25cm) and mittlere (medium - 17cm) minenwerfer are not so easy to differentiate on a picture, since their proportions are almost identical, and many small variants existed too all along the war. This one is a pretty late 1917 fabrication. The best clue to decide whether it is a 25cm sMW or a 17cm mMW is to check its muzzle diameter.

 

Awaiting your answer, and congrats for the pictures (where are the 'poor pics' you're mentioning ? ;))

 

Bernard

Edited by Guns1418

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4thGordons

Hi Bernard

Of course you may post the pictures.

The post is in Foley AL located at 2101 S McKenzie St, Foley, AL 36535.

You can actually see the mortar on Google Earth HERE in front of the tank.

 

Unfortunately I was on a trip passing it by and did not measure the muzzle but I am pretty certain it is 25cm rather than 17cm.

The pictures were taken with my phone rather than my DSLR which was inaccessible at the time I can send the original files if those posted here are not sufficient.

 

Cheers

Chris

 

EDIT: it is possible I have another one for you - there is a British 60lber in Nokomis IL (much closer to me) which I am not sure is in your database and which I also have pictures of one is here but I have several more.[now attached]

Nokomis-17.jpg

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Nokomis-3.jpg

Nokomis-2.jpg

Nokomis-1.jpg

Edited by 4thGordons

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CharlieBris

The 17cm and 25cm minenwerfers can be identified by looking at the muzzle - the 25cm has a pronounced "lip" around the muzzle (see images in the thread) but the 17cm muzzle is straight sided (attached).

 

Regards,

 

Charlie

 

17cmmMWnANewportNews.jpg

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Guns1418

Hi Charlie

 

I wish it was so simple

 

The minen you show (located in Newport News) is a medium 17cm indeed, but the top of its barrel does not have a lip only because it is a 17cm mMW n/A (n/A for Neue Art - New Design), with an elongated tube, introduced from 1916. The big 25cm sMW n/A also usually did not have 'lips on the muzzle, or smooth ones depending on the model variant

 

You may see surviving examples there :

 

On the contrary, both 'old models' 17cm mMW a/A and 25cm sMW a/A that were introduced before 1914 had muzzle lips.

 

Again, surviving examlples in USA may be seen here :

 

 

Now as I said, it is not even as simple as I just explained. During the war, the minenwerfer fabrication was subject to some subcontracting or minor modifications because they were quite simple pieces of equipment to manufacture. There is a lot of minor changes that can be seen even within the two major categories listed above.

 

Hope this helps !

 

Bernard

www.passioncompassion1418.com

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Guns1418

Hi Chris

 

thanks so much for your posts. the minen and the 60 Pdr are now integrated on your behalf in the surviving WW1 guns database

 

http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Canons/Eng_AfficheCanonGET_TEST.php?IdCanonAffiche=1299

 

http://www.passioncompassion1418.com/Canons/Eng_AfficheCanonGET_TEST.php?IdCanonAffiche=1300

 

Bernard

www.passioncompassion1418.com

 

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4thGordons

Excellent - thanks very much Bernard.  I will keep my eyes peeled for others on my travels.

Chris

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ServiceRumDiluted

Hi Bernard I'm not sure if you are aware of 2 x  25cm Minenwerfers on display at the Malta armed forces museum?

 

http://maltain360.com/page.aspx?ref=110003638

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Guns1418

Hi ServiceRumDiluted

 

thanks for you info, I did'nt know

 

I just post them on you behalf in the database

 

Bernard

Edited by Guns1418
Change name 'Chris' for 'ServiceRumDiluted'

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new3.2

Hello Bernard-  Are you familiar with the WW1 American Ordnance List?  The founders have now passed on, but the results are still around.  I added several guns a while ago.

Ken

 

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28juni14

Hello new3.2,

 

The ordnance items displayed in American Legion Posts across America are not the property of those posts.  They remain US government owned, and each post is required     to make an annual report on the condition of the piece on display.  This reporting has been increasingly ignored over the past decades and there is little follow-up these days.  I had a similar experience here in southern Illinois with a 15cm K16. (Incidentally, I am a Legioneer.)  I had arranged for the gun's transport to Ft.Sill for restoration via the rail carrier I worked for. ( They had agreed to replace it temporarily with a M109 SP.)   At the last moment the membership voted against the move.   I did however,  "persuade'  them to provide a concrete pad and a promise for overhead protective cover. 

 Good luck in getting your post's attention for the need to protect this particular piece of ordnance.

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new3.2

Hello juni-  I am familiar with the post 1920's loan agreement; the WW1 Ordnance List is a listing of extant ordnance that a group of volunteers (I was one) that recorded such items they observed in their travels around the U.S.  It makes a handy check-list for viewing artillery.

Ken 

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