1st Division at Mons?

[Gardenerbill]

The map of army deployments on the Long Long Trail Battle of Mons page:

 

Here

 

Shows from west to east IV Division, III Division then II Division. Am I right in assuming that I Dvision were to the SE of II Division and therefore not directly involved in the battle? I am particularly interested in 2nd Brigade.

[Ron Clifton]

Roughly yes. 2nd Div and 1st Div were part of I Corps, which was less directly involved than II Corps at Mons. They had their own problems at Landrecies as the two Corps withdrew either side of the Forest of Mormal.

 

Ron 

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks Ron

[Keith Iles]

Hi Ron, while researching the movements of my paternal Grand father who was a pre-war regular with the 2/KRRC and took part in the retreat, I found Retreat and Rearguard 1914  Pen and Sword  and Retreat of I Corps 1914 from the Battleground series Early Battles 1914 also Pen and Sword and both by Jerry Murland very useful.

 

Regards Keith

[MBrockway]

Mark,

If you're talking specifically about the Battle of Mons on 23 Aug 1914, then 2/KRRC (2 Bde, 1st Div) were not directly in action.  From their Battalion War Record in the 1914 KRRC Chronicle, it seems this was also true for the whole division.

 

On the night of 22/23 Aug they moved from ST REMY-MAL-BATI (17:30hrs) through MAUBEUGE to VILLER-SIRE-NICOLE (22:30hrs) where they had a short rest.

 

At 04:10hrs they set off again to a position just to the SW of ROUVEROY.

 

Artillery opened fire some distance to the N of them and at ~12:30hrs they moved up into the village proper.

 

After lunch the German artillery appeared closer and 2nd Division were reported to be engaged.  It was clear that a heavy fight was under way to the NW around MONS.  1st Division were not engaged.

 

At around 17:00hrs, 2/KRRC and 1/Northants were ordered to GIVRY about 1.5 miles away to reinforce 6 Infantry Brigade of 2nd Division.

 

Just after 20:00hrs 2/KRRC was sent to reinforce a battalion (unnamed in the KRRC Chronicle) at HARMIGNIES under heavy attack.  This was only a mile or so away and no sounds of fighting could be heard, so this message was later deemed potentially bogus.  Nevertheless the battalion moved to HARMIGNIES and there spent the night entrenched around the village.

 

The following morning at about 05:45hrs they were ordered to rejoin 2 Bde at GIVRY at once.

 

Let us know if want other dates checked.

 

If this is related to reconstructing Walter Bedingham's movements in his month with the BEF , then you might also find the British Official History, France & Flanders 1914 Volume I helpful :

https://archive.org/details/3edmilitaryopera01edmouoft

 

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

Edited 23 November , 2017 by MBrockway

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

The map of army deployments on the Long Long Trail Battle of Mons page:

 

Here

 

Shows from west to east IV Division, III Division then II Division. Am I right in assuming that I Dvision were to the SE of II Division and therefore not directly involved in the battle? I am particularly interested in 2nd Brigade.

 

The black and white map is wrong as it shows 4th Div  (IV Div) where in fact 5th Div was (13th, 14th, 15th Inf Bdes). 4th Div was not present at Mons. It was disembarking at Le Havre at the time and famously joined Simth Dorrien's II Cops (3rd Div and 5th Div) at Le Cateau.

 

The Battalions of the 4th Div didn't qualify their parent regiments for the Battle Honour 'Mons'

[Gardenerbill]

Thanks Martin.

[Guest]

If you need any diary extracts for 2nd inf Bde at Mons let me know as I have the relevant parts transcribed. For 2nd Inf Bde there is;

 

2nd Bn Royal Sussex Regt

1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt

1st Bn Loyal North Lancs - Lt J GW Hyndson's personal diary

2nd Bn KRRC (different to the KRRC Chronicle version)

 

Happy to post whatever you need here. MG

 

 

Edited 23 November , 2017 by Guest
2nd Bn KRRC

[Gardenerbill]

Martin,

My faith in The Long Long Trail is being slowly undermined; it has 2nd KRRC in 2nd Infantry Brigade?

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

Martin,

My faith in The Long Long Trail is being slowly undermined; it has 2nd KRRC in 2nd Infantry Brigade?

 

Keep the faith. It is 2nd Bn KRRC. My typo. Fat fingers. I will amend. MG

[Gardenerbill]

Phew, that's a relief. You may have seen my topic on Walter Bedingham who served in the 2nd KRRC; I am now in the process of writing up his tme in France. I have the 2KRRC war diary and for the 22nd, 23rd and 24th it has them in the Givry area and I think billeted (I will check when I get home), my assumption is that they were in brigade reserve, so I would be interested in what the brigade diary says for 22nd, 23rd and 24th, in terms of the dispositions of the battalions. 

[MBrockway]

The style of the B&W map on the mother site is that of Hammerton's The Great War:The Standard History of the All-Europe Conflict part-work.

 

These maps do sometimes contain errors or 'generalisations'.

 

My copy's in a trunk in the loft, so I can't check to see if the text also includes the error!

 

Re the confusion on ORBAT - 2/KRRC were in 2 Infantry Brigade in 1st Division in I Corps.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

HQ 2nd Infantry Brigade War Diary

23rd Aug 1914. ROUVEROY. Marched at 04:00 and joined HQ Division at ROUVEROY and billeted. An attack from the North was made against advanced troops of 2nd Division North of GIVRY during the morning. 2nd Bn KRRC and 1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt were sent to GIVRY to reinforce. At 20:00 the remainder of the Brigade moved to GIVRY to further reinforce.

 

24th Aug 1914. GIVRY. Enemy shelling began at daylight against our artillery and infantry East of GIVRY.

07:00. 2nd Infantry Brigade covered the retirement of 6th Infantry Brigade and entrenched the line BETTIGNIES - GOGNIES just North of the Belgian frontier.  At 16:00 marched South across the frontier to FIEGNIES. Billeted. 

 

25th Aug 1914. FEIGNIES. Marched 05:00. 2nd Infantry Brigade group was rear guard to 1st Division. Long and tiring march owing to continual checks caused by French columns crossing our front. Reached billets at MARBAIX after dark. Weather very wet. 

 

 

Please note times are converted to 24hr clock so 7 a.m. is transcribed as 07:00. Also unit titles are written in full (unless it has a well known abbreviation such as KRRC or KOSB etc)  i.e. 1/Northants is transcribed as 1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt. It is an editorial decision that runs through all my transcriptions. 

 

 

2nd Bn KRRC War Diary

23rd Aug 1914.  After a good deal of trouble owing to the narrow streets being blocked with troops, we got on the road about 04:10 and marched to ROUVEROY, about two and a half miles.  We halted in a field South West of the village and after a meal, lay down to sleep under the hedges.  Four or five Officers went out to reconnoitre towards FAUROELX and HAULCHIN. 

 

About 11:00 artillery opened fire some distance to the North of us; about 12:30 we moved into billets in the village.  There is a good church and a fine chateau here, in the latter of which HQ, 1st Division was located. After lunch the German guns approached closer and engaged the 2nd Division on our left, while a heavy fight appeared to be in progress further to the North West towards MONS.  The 1st Division was not engaged, though the ground had been reconnoitred and both Infantry and Artillery were on tip-toes ready to move out.

 

About 17:00 a message arrived from the 2nd Division asking for reinforcements and the 1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt and our Battalion were ordered to move at once to GIVRY, about one and a half miles, to join the 6th Infantry Brigade.

 

At 20:00 a message arrived from a Battalion at HARMIGNIES saying it was heavily attacked and our Battalion was sent off as quickly as possible to reinforce it.  We had heard no firing or noise in the direction of HARMIGNIES which was only about a mile away and when we arrived there we found everything quiet, so the message was perhaps a bogus one.  We were not so suspicious of spies at this time as we became later on. However, we spent the night there, at the Eastern end of the village with A and B Coys entrenched in front and C and D Coys in reserve.

 

24th Aug 1914.   We stood to arms at 03:30 but nothing happened until 05:00 when the German artillery opened fire but no shells came in our direction.  However the Reserve Companies were moved to the South Eastern corner of the village where they were well concealed and also fairly well protected.

About 05:45 we received orders to rejoin the 2nd Infantry Brigade at GIVRY at once.  We found a good covered way along the South side of the stream, rejoined the Brigade at the sugar factory about 1000 yards South West of GIVRY where we found our 1st Guards Brigade and halted close to them for about half an hour.  We then marched to BETTIGNIES arriving there about 09:00 and halted close to the village, putting out four or five Companies from the Brigade for protection.  We remained there till about 16:00 but the enemy appeared to make no attempt to follow us, which seems to have been an error on his part.  The crowds of refugees streaming past us was a most pathetic sight.  There were very few men among them and there were many parties of women and children driving wagons drawn by animals of all sorts, even cows and mares with their foals by their side.  Most of the wagons were piled up with household goods and now and then one saw a woman wheeling a barrow which she had loaded with her most precious belongings, including a small child or two on top of all. Late in the afternoon we marched to FEIGNIES, close to MAUBEUGE, were we billeted.

 

25th Aug 1914.  We roused about 5:00 am and marched about 07:00 the Battalion being Rear Guard to the Division.  A and B Coys were posted on the north side of FEIGNIES early, as a few hostile Cavalrymen had been reported on that side. After passing the River SAMBRE at HAUTMONT, we found ourselves marching alongside a French Division and exchanged experiences as we went.  The Infantry marched at a great pace but there was a good deal of ""go as you please"" in their style, which contrasted strongly with the march discipline of the slower moving British.  As we marched through MONCEAU a few rifle shots were fired to the westward of us and just after crossing the railway at the level crossing, our Cyclist Scouts reported a dismounted Uhlan at a farm about 600 yards away.  They fired a few shots at him and immediately two others with horses came out from behind the buildings and they all rode away.  It is most unlikely that we did them any damage as it was getting dusk and the light was bad for shooting.

 

 

1st Bn Loyal North Lancashire Regt  (2nd Infantry Brigade, 1st Division)  - Lt Hyndson's Personal Diary. 

23rd Aug 1914 GIVRY.. Next morning we are hurried out at day break and rushed into BELGIUM; we cross the frontier about 07:30, and shortly afterwards turn into a field and stay there for several hours. We see the enemy for the first time in the shape of a Taube; he hovers over us for about five minutes, and we all rush into the sides of the hedge until he disappears in the German Direction.

 

One of the difficulties of the march was that the men, when they got tired, on halting simply throw down their rifles on the road and fall down to seize what rest they can; this is liable to damage the rifles. They also carry the day's ration on them, in addition to their iron ration and 150 rounds of ammunition per man, while if a fight was expected and extra 50 or 100 rounds were dished out.

 

Towards evening we move forward and go into billets at GIVRY. Guns have been distinctly audible since leaving LA FONTAINE, and we know that soon we shall be in battle. We settle down, and I go buying bread at the Marie, where I manage to obtain a few loaves and we have a fair meal. The village is wild with excitement and all the inhabitants have been ordered to leave. The greatcoats are taken away from the men and stored on this place; it is a good thing as they are nearly too much for them to carry in addition to their other kit, Towards dusk guns begin to fire just behind our village and we all go out to see the fun; it is a very pretty sight.

 

We can see right down the valley for miles, and the guns are going for each other; soon fires start at the various points, night is drawing in, and the sight is very impressive. One of our batteries seems to be getting a bad time - heard afterwards that it had suffered pretty heavily. We are also given the opportunity of seeing the 3rd infantry Brigade entrenching; they are busy just below the spur making breastworks and trenches which, however, they were not destined to use; I should say it is just as well.

 

We are suddenly recalled and told to fall in then we push out of the village down the main road towards MONS. Night has now caused the firing on both sides to cease. We only go a few hundred yards and then lie on the right side of the road facing the enemy. The whole country is now lit up by burning farms and haystacks. ALLASON goes to see the CO for orders and on coming back tells us we are to have a ""Bloody battle"" on the morrow. We then explain all we have heard to our platoons, snatch a hasty meal of bully and biscuit, and then lie down to try and get some sleep. Personally, I find it almost impossible, for the morrow has made me far too excited, so that I do not get more than an hour. I think that my only wish was that I should not turn about and run - I felt very like it just about then.

 

During the night two pack animals run away, just missing a score of men; as it was one man had his leg badly broken and three others were hurt. Motor cars continually ran up and down the road the whole night; sometimes they contain a general, sometimes a Staff Officer. Twice there is a sharp rifle fire over on our left; we afterwards heard that the Germans had attempted to surprise the 6th Infantry Brigade but were repulsed.

24th Aug 1914. GIVERY to HAVAY to FEIGNIES . At daybreak we got ready for the attack. The guns commenced at the first streak of dawn, and I particularly noticed one of our batteries on ahead of us. The Germans had found the range and were planting their shells just over the battery; it was being corrected each time and they were gradually getting right on the guns. It was the first and last time I saw our guns in the open without any cover.

 

We were told to retire about half a mile, and thus we began the famous retreat. We went back through VILLERS SIRE NICOLE, then forward again to cover the retirement of the 2nd Division. Passing through, the people were very kind and gave us wine and coffee. I had a splendid cup of good coffee. We proceed to HAVEY and entrench; my Company has to dig shelter trenches, and I go to a neighbouring farm and take what is required in the shape of doors, spades etc. We dig in a turnip field and on completion are sent to a small village and placed in a reserve. Only one shell comes near us, and we catch but one glimpse of some enemy cavalry, for though heavy fighting is going on in front we spend the rest of the day there and are not called upon. We are able to get any amount of fruit from a farm and have a good tuck in. 

 

About midday the 6th Brig pass us; the men are in a terrible state of exhaustion, and DOLL tells me they have had to march and counter-march under shell fire the whole day; their casualties, however, were only a few wounded. I meet several of my old friends, and notice that SHEPPARDS MOUNT has been washed over with a kind of coffee stain. At nightfall the remainder of the Regiment comes in, and we march to FEIGNIES, where we billet for the night. We are lucky to find an empty house and plenty of eatables. WAKLEY, who has been complaining of his foot for some days, gives in and is sent to hospital with sore heel. I set at liberty several horses which the inhabitants had left shut up in their hurry to fly.

25th Aug 1914. MAUBEUGE. The next morning we are up at dawn and move backward in the direction of the MAUBEUGE, which we pass on the outskirts, leaving the city and all its forts on the left. I think the men began to see that something was wrong, as just about this time they began to grouse a good deal. Before we got to MAUBEUGE our billeting party had to repulse a small party of German cavalry who had got in behind us and as we pass the fortress its great guns had already begun to fire. We march on well into the night and take up billets at MARBAIX, very tired. A French column crosses our front, and this delays us; whenever we meet the French at these times cheers are exchanged. We are billeted in a very dirty part of the town, and I spend the best part of an hour issuing water to the company.

 

 

1st Bn Northamptonshire Regt War Diary

23rd Aug 1914. GIVRY. Battalion was detailed as Divisional Troops. Marched to GIVRY. In the evening ordered to reinforce the BERKSHIRE REGT. Shelled. 

No casualties.

24th Aug 1914. GIVRY. 6:00 am ordered to retire to GIVRY and form Rear Guard to 1st Division retiring. Billet in MAUBEUGE

25th Aug 1914. MARBAIX. Marched to MARBAIX. Brigade in Rear Guard. Rifle fire stampeded ASC Transport. Our casualties: 1 man killed, 3 wounded due to false alarm.

 

2nd Bn Royal Sussex Regt War Diary.

23rd Aug 1914. ROUVEROY. Received sudden orders at 03:15 to move at once, and at 04:00 the Brigade marched off. Bivouacked at ROUVEROY, BELGIUM at about 05:30. The Brigade was this day placed in Divisional Reserve. 

 

At 15:00 the Brigade moved into the village and billeted. In the evening we watched the Germans opening a heavy artillery fire on MONS, which could be plainly seen by us, and the 26th Brigade RGA who were stationed in our vicinity brought their heavy guns into action just outside the village. The Battalion turned out of billets and ""stood by"" until about 21:30, when we advanced towards MONS and bivouacked by the roadside through the night the head of the column ½ mile short of GIVRY.

24th Aug 1914. BONNET - FEIGNIES. Soon after daylight, the duel between the rival Artillery was resumed, and the Battalion received words to march on BONNET, which place we reached about 9:30 am. Artillery first being kept up on our right flank throughout the march. On arrival, we took up a position south of BONNET and strongly entrenched ourselves. Two Companies of the 2nd Bn KRRC were on our right flank with the 2nd Bn Royal Munster Fusiliers pushed forward in advance of them, and in front of us was the 1st Bn Loyal North Lancashire Regt. On our left flank was the 3rd Infantry Brigade

 

Heavy artillery first took place during the day, but the Battalion was not called upon to assist those in front. The Battalion received the congratulations of the Division for the trenches it had dug in this place. 

 

At about 17:45 the 1st Division marched southwards, the 2nd Infantry Brigade acting as Rear Guard, with the Battalion as its Rear Guard. Arrived at FEIGNIES at 22:00 where we billeted. HQ at Railway Station.  

 

25th Aug 1914. MARBAIX.  At 07:30 the Brigade, as Rear Guard to the Division moved southwards. Soon after starting, the French troops commenced firing at British aeroplanes, thinking apparently that they were German machines, and it was by a bullet fired by this force that No 7610 Sgt A J HITCHMAN was wounded in the thigh. 

 

The Battalion continued their march throughout the day and on arrival at MARBAIX at about 20:00 billeted. Previous to our arrival, whilst the 1st & 2nd Line Transport of the Division was parked in the streets of the village, some confusion occurred, for it appeared that some French troops opened fire on our wagons, and as it was dark, our troops returned the fire and a kind of a stampede amongst the horses occurred. A horse on which a French Gendarme was mounted bolted, throwing its rider under the wheels of a water cart and killed him. A woman was wounded by a rifle bullet in this affray. 

Lt W BURGESS admitted to hospital.
 

 

 

Edited 23 November , 2017 by Guest

[MBrockway]

1 hour ago, QGE said:

If you need any diary extracts for 2nd inf Bde at Mons let me know as I have the relevant parts transcribed. For 2nd Inf Bde there is;

 

2nd Bn KRRC (different to the KRRC Chronicle version)

 

 

To be honest, the 2/KRRC Battalion War Record in the 1914 KRRC Chronicle that I have summarised in Post #5 above seems to me to be a near verbatim transcription of the 2/KRRC War Diary.

 

The only tweak I would make to my summary is that they left the billets in VILLER-SIR-NICOLE earlier than 04:10hrs on 23 Aug.  Both sources say the battalion received orders "to move on at once" at 03:15hrs.  However it seems they were not properly on the open road till 04:10hrs, which is why I used that time - "after a good deal of trouble owing to the narrow streets being blocked with troops, we got on the road about 4.10 a.m. and marched to ROUVEROY, about two and a half miles.".  I glossed over this detail for the sake of 55 mins - apologies!

 

Have I missed something else?  Or is the variance between Chronicle and diary on another date?

 

Mark

Martin - our posts crossed!

[MBrockway]

3 hours ago, MBrockway said:

Mark,

If you're talking specifically about the Battle of Mons on 23 Aug 1914, then 2/KRRC (2 Bde, 1st Div) were not directly in action.  From their Battalion War Record in the 1914 KRRC Chronicle, it seems this was also true for the whole division.

<snip>

Let us know if want other dates checked.

 

If this is related to reconstructing Walter Bedingham's movements in his month with the BEF , then you might also find the British Official History, France & Flanders 1914 Volume I helpful :

https://archive.org/details/3edmilitaryopera01edmouoft

 

Mark

 

31 minutes ago, Gardenerbill said:

Phew, that's a relief. You may have seen my topic on Walter Bedingham who served in the 2nd KRRC; I am now in the process of writing up his tme in France. I have the 2KRRC war diary and for the 22nd, 23rd and 24th it has them in the Givry area and I think billeted (I will check when I get home), my assumption is that they were in brigade reserve, so I would be interested in what the brigade diary says for 22nd, 23rd and 24th, in terms of the dispositions of the battalions. 

 

Mark - looks like you may have missed my Post #5 above?  No worries - you have the data from Martin now anyway.  And I was already aware you had downloaded the 2/KRRC war diary (apart from that one missing page) from our correspondence off the Board the other day.

 

I still recommend the OH Volume I download though.

 

Mark

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

 

To be honest, the 2/KRRC Battalion War Record in the 1914 KRRC Chronicle that I have summarised in Post #5 above seems to me to be a near verbatim transcription of the 2/KRRC War Diary.

 

The only tweak I would make to my summary is that they left the billets in VILLER-SIR-NICOLE earlier than 04:10hrs on 23 Aug.  Both sources say the battalion received orders "to move on at once" at 03:15hrs.  However it seems they were not properly on the open road till 04:10hrs, which is why I used that time - "after a good deal of trouble owing to the narrow streets being blocked with troops, we got on the road about 4.10 a.m. and marched to ROUVEROY, about two and a half miles.".  I glossed over this detail for the sake of 55 mins - apologies!

 

Have I missed something else?  Or is the variance between Chronicle and diary on another date?

 

Mark

Martin - our posts crossed!

 No. Just offering the full text. 

[Gardenerbill]

Thank you both,

I shall study this in deatil when I get home tonight.