"burning the dead"

[trajan]

On 11/25/2017 at 01:04, phil andrade said:

... A pal on GWF has just sent me a PM, and cited  a thread from seven years ago, alluding to the hideous task of trying to recover British and Australian dead in the heat of mid July 1916 at Fromelles.

 

After days of effort, it was decided to try and cremate the dead.

 

 

Quite by chance I have just passed the mention of this in P.Barton's The Lost Legions of Fromelles - p.277, quoting a report by RIR 16 on the Englaender (sc - Australians) burning the dead with 'benzine' on the night of 22nd August.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, greatspywar said:

I like the word "Alleged". Sums it rather all up...

 

Fake news?

 

Mike

[Andrew Upton]

11 hours ago, museumtom said:

April 1917.

 

5 hours ago, greatspywar said:

I like the word "Alleged". Sums it rather all up...

 

1 hour ago, Skipman said:

 

Fake news?

 

Mike

 

As in the link I posted back in post 46...

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

 

 

As in the link I posted back in post 46...

 

Yes exactly the same.

 

Mike

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

"The Germans according to the Daily Mail....."

On 29/11/2017 at 08:05, museumtom said:

April 1917.

 

 

"The Germans according to the Daily Mail....."

[Skipman]

Found this in the Perthshire Constitutional 23/6/1915 "Particulars are given by a correspondent in Paris of the decision arrived at by the French Chamber of Deputies as to the cremation of the bodies of German soldiers and of unidentified French and Allied soldiers found on the battlefield."

 

Mike

[kenf48]

As at post 4 the proposal, as a solution to a real problem of hygiene, was not implemented due to practical difficulties.

 

Ken 

[Skipman]

8 hours ago, kenf48 said:

As at post 4 the proposal, as a solution to a real problem of hygiene, was not implemented due to practical difficulties.

 

Ken 

 

 

 

Ah, thanks for reminding us Ken here's a link to your post. Click

 

Mike

 

 

[phil andrade]

Those huge cemeteries , with millions of interments, whether French , German or British, must stand as proof that burning of the dead was not standard procedure.

 

Had it been so, how could we account for the “ silent cities” ?

 

Phil

 

 

[Ron Clifton]

Deceased Indian soldiers were usually cremated, in accordance with standard Hindu practice.

 

Ron

[Skipman]

Thanks all. I think Ken has probably answered the OP.

 

Mike

Edited 4 January , 2020 by Skipman

[kenf48]

11 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

Deceased Indian soldiers were usually cremated, in accordance with standard Hindu practice.

 

Ron

 

 

I would challenge the above statement,  There is is little evidence that cremation for Hindus was practised on the battlefields of the Western Front, funerals at the Base or in the U.K. are different.  Not all Indian soldiers were Hindus, many were Muslims.

Generally the Muslim funerary rite is burial, and in the UK a burial ground (albeit initially deemed unsatisfactory) was provided at Woking for those Indian soldiers who followed that religion who died in the U.K

Although the Hindu religion requires purification by cremation, burial is also permitted. There were cremation facilities at the hospitals in the UK treating Indian soldiers.  Most famously fifty-three Hindu and Sikh soldiers were cremated in accordance with the funeral rites of their faith at a burning ghat  near Patcham, now the site of the Chattri Memorial.  It was originally intended there should be a memorial at each of the Indian hospitals in the U.K. 

 

Not all Indian soldiers who died in the U.K. were afforded this rite, ’Sukha’ a sweeper and an Untouchable died of pneumonia in hospital at Brockenhurst and was buried in the churchyard there, his headstone raised by public subscription.  He was considered to be too lower a caste to be cremated at Patcham and, as a Hindu could not be buried in a Muslim Cemetery.

There was very little opportunity for cremation on the Western Front, for logistical reasons as outlined in previous posts, e.g. the high temperature required, though there were opportunities at the Base Depot.  There were grave political implications in India and it was noted Hindus were being buried at Boulogne.   In December 1914 Sir Walter Larwence wrote to Kitchener expressing his concern.  He noted it took some time to arrange cremations as the French authorities were strongly opposed to it.  Not only did they succeed but the French Commission report cited by Skipman above noted all unidentified remains on the Western Front should be ,’cremated in the simple manner of the Indians.’   As I said before it was a problem of hygiene.  The  Neuve Chappelle memorial alone lists 4,700 soldiers from South Asia who have no known grave and although it includes those who were cremated so many of those were denied the funeral rites of their religion.

 

There were no priests in the Indian Corps and the funeral rites were carried out, according to caste, by the Subadar-Major.  I recall reading recently, but can't put my hands on the reference at the moment that given their faith and belief in reincarnation it was an issue at the time but some form of dispensation was given to those who fell in battle.

 

 

The issue was raised in Parliament on 9th May 1916

 

HINDU SOLDIERS (CREMATION).

HC Deb 09 May 1916 vol 82 cc448-9 448

§ 41. and 42. Mr. KING

asked the Secretary of State for India (1) whether during the time in which Hindu soldiers were fighting on the Western front Hindu soldiers killed in action or dying from wounds or sickness were cremated, in accordance with the religion and usage of their race; whether special facilities were available for this purpose; whether any expense so incurred will be borne by the British taxpayer; and (2) whether during the time in which Indian soldiers were operating on the Western front Mahomedan soldiers who were killed in action or who died from wounds or sickness were buried in such manner as to satisfy the demands of their religion; whether any special burial ground in this country was available or was provided for this purpose; and whether any expense incurred in this connection may be so met as to fall on the British taxpayer?

§ The SECRETARY of STATE for INDIA (Mr. Chamberlain)

Under the conditions of warfare it is not generally possible to arrange for the cremation of the bodies of Hindu soldiers killed in action or otherwise dying at the front, nor is it required by religious precept. As far as circumstances have permitted, interments have been reverently carried out by fellow castemen with appropriate rites, frequently in special plots in the local cemeteries. The burial of the Mahomedan dead has similarly been carried out by fellow Moslems in accordance with their religious ritual. Careful records of all such burials of Hindus and Mahomedans have been kept 449 so that permanent headstones may hereafter be put up. At the larger base hospitals in France and England it has been possible to provide crematoria for the cremation of Hindus. A special burial ground has been provided at public expense at Woking for Mahomedan soldiers who have died in this country.

(Hansard Archive)

 

I don’t know what happened in other theatres, but given the number of casualties for example on Gallipoli it seems unlikely there were many instances of cremation according to the funeral rites.  In the example given above ‘a few cans of petrol would not achieve much’.

 

Ken

[NigelS]

16 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Generally the Muslim funerary rite is burial, and in the UK a burial ground (albeit initially deemed unsatisfactory) was provided at Woking for those Indian soldiers who followed that religion who died in the U.K

 

Prior to the special burial ground being established on Horsell Common, Woking early Great War (and some later)  Muslim  military burials took place at Brookwood (civil) Cemetery. This isn't surprising as the cemetery had been established on a private commercial basis to cater for both secular and non-secular burials the previous century  with many  Muslim interments  both civil &  military prior to, during and post WWI having been made there.   Several explanations for the establishment of the special Muslim  military burial ground at Woking during the war  when an existing one was already available at  Brookwood less  than a  handful of miles distant  have been given:

1) To counter German propaganda claims that Indian military  war dead - of whatever religion - were not being treated in accordance with the relevant religious customs/traditions

2) Although only a relatively short distance to travel the Imam at the Shah Jehan Mosque at Woking who had to officiate at  Brookwood burials,  complained about the amount of time he would have to spend travelling to the  latter.

3) Coupled with 2) the Imam might have had an agenda to establish a general (ie not just for military war dead) Muslim burial ground close to the Woking Mosque on the back of that of the military one.

Historically 3) didn't happen  with the Horsell Common site only ever being used for military interments of WWI & II, initially under the War Department, before being transferred to the IWGC/CWGC's care  on its foundation. My suspicions are that all three of the above reasons may have had some bearing on the creation of the Horsell site. (Subsequently the burials were moved to Brookwood Military Cemetery in the 1960's after repeated vandalism at the Horsell site made it impossible to maintain) 

More recently, although no longer containing any burials, the Historic England listed  Horsell site has been fully restored as a Peace Garden with appropriate landscaping and a memorial. 

 

As an aside, until recently Woking didn't have a civil burial site of its own so the borough's secular & non Christian (including Muslim) burials would have had to have been  at local private cemeteries such a Brookwood.  The borough does now have its own civil site, achieved by purchasing  Brookwood Cemetery!  The adjacent CWGC military cemetery was created on the foundation of the IWGC during WWI on land purchased from the owners of the civil cemetery at the time (The Brookwood Necropolis Company)

 

CWGC listing of WWI & II Indian military  burials at  Brookwood (civil) Cemetery (with the exception of Capt Hubert Thomas De La Motte, 29th Punjabis  - who may not have been Muslim - all the interments are listed as being in the Muslim burial ground): 

 https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?cemetery=Brookwood%2BCemetery&war=1%2c2&servedWith=Indian

 

CWGC listing of WWI & II Indian military burials at Brookwood Military (CWGC) Cemetery. Note this listing contains all Indian military burials; the Muslim ones are those listed in plot IIA (for WWI) / 2A (for WWII) - despite the  subtle difference in plot references (IIA & 2A) there is, in fact, only the one plot and these are the burials that were removed from  the Horsell Common site:

https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?cemetery=Brookwood%2BMilitary%2BCemetery&war=1%2c2&servedWith=Indian

 

NigelS

[michaeldr]

13 hours ago, kenf48 said:

I don’t know what happened in other theatres, but given the number of casualties for example on Gallipoli it seems unlikely there were many instances of cremation according to the funeral rites.

 

I cannot comment on "unlikely there were many" but certainly cremation did happen on Gallipoli and in the case of the British burning the Turkish dead, then it can only have been because of hygiene;

I am absolutely convinced that no disrespect was intended.

For examples see 

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C299505

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C1004369

[kenf48]

 

42 minutes ago, michaeldr said:

I cannot comment on "unlikely there were many" but certainly cremation did happen on Gallipoli and in the case of the British burning the Turkish dead, then it can only have been because of hygiene;

 

The photographs illustrate the point, the principal, but not exclusive, funeral ceremonies of Hindus,Sikhs and Ghurkas require cremation.  The selective quote above omitted 'according to the funeral rites' which is the specific point under discussion.  The Ghurka 'officer' in the 1918 photograph was no doubt supervising the burning of the bodies according to traditional and Indian Army custom.  It is an interesting photograph I wonder if such care was taken during battlefield clearance in France and Flanders.

 

The burning of Turkish bodies was previously described at post 46.  Although allegedly the result was 'satisfactory' there is no record of its effectiveness.

 

Ken