War Gratuity and length of Service WW1

[Guest]

Hello

I am doing some research for a friend's grandfather and I cannot find the date of enlistment.  However I have found UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929               

I understand that I can roughly calculate when a man enlisted by his war gratuity.  I have spend hours trying to work this out by to no avail - can you help?

many thanks in advance

 

[ss002d6252]

4 minutes ago, Doylangston said:

Hello

I am doing some research for a friend's grandfather and I cannot find the date of enlistment.  However I have found UK, Army Registers of Soldiers' Effects, 1901-1929               

I understand that I can roughly calculate when a man enlisted by his war gratuity.  I have spend hours trying to work this out by to no avail - can you help?

many thanks in advance

 

 

You have come to the right place, I have worked on gratuities for several years- the link in my signature will take you to my website on the war gratuity and how to work it out.

To save you further time though I can tell you the man received the basic war gratuity of £3 (net) for 12 months service or less at the time of his death.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

The earliest you can say he enlisted was 20 Oct 17.

Looking at nearby service records shows that #33508 was allocated on 11 August 18 but for training purposes he would have had service prior to this date of at least 3-4 months.

Craig

[kenf48]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

The earliest you can say he enlisted was 20 Oct 17.

Looking at nearby service records shows that #33508 was allocated on 11 August 18 but for training purposes he would have had service prior to this date of at least 3-4 months.

Craig

 

According to SDGW Pte Nicholas was previously 207707 RASC enlisted Leicester.

 

Interestingly 33505 was also from Leicestershire and he was sentence to imprisonment fo desertion but released and posted to the 1st Bn East Lancs and allocated the number on 11/8/1918, then reposted to the 11th at Etaples on the 5th September.  “All former service forfeited on conviction’.

33508 Brodie was also convicted of desertion and sentenced to detention, released from Barlinnie to the Detention Barracks Aldershot, and posted to 1st E Lancashire , as Craig says on the 11 August 1918 and again posted to the 1/5 on 3/9/1918 in France.

Both the above had considerable time to run on their sentence when released for duty in France.

 

The question is,if 33506 was also released from detention would his previous service be forfeit on the award of the gratuity?

 

207747 Cree ASC was a Derby recruit attested December 1915 and mobilised. October 1916 as was 

207714 Sims M.T. Learner16 October 1916.

 

Ken

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

The question is,if 33506 was also released from detention would his previous service be forfeit on the award of the gratuity?

 

If convicted of desertion, yes. Unusual to see but it would certainly show a smaller gratuity due to it if that was the case. Never seen a 'range of deserters'.

 before but looks interesting to see a possible example.

Quote

12 The following periods of service will not reckon as qualifying service for the purposes of the gratuity:-
(a) Any period of service previous to the date of conviction, or of the order dispensing with a trial, for desertion, unless such service is restored under the King’s Regulations on or before the 3^rd August 1919.
(b) Any period of penal servitude, or of imprisonment or detention exceeding 28 days undergone by the soldier, and any continuous period of absence without leave exceeding 28 days.
(c) Any period of service during which the soldier has been continuously in receipt of full civil wages, except, as may be otherwise provided by the Army Council.
(d) Any period of service as a soldier of the Non-Combatant Corps.

Craig

Edited 20 November , 2017 by ss002d6252

[tootrock]

I am researching a local man, and find that I am currently unable to use the normally excellent War Gratuities website (due to a Windows problem I gather), so I wondered if someone could look up the enlistment date for a man who died on 22 March 1918, and received a gratuity of £9.

 

Thanks in anticipation,

 

Martin

 

(Just noticed this is my 1,000th post!)

Edited 10 December , 2017 by tootrock

[ss002d6252]

29 minutes ago, tootrock said:

I am researching a local man, and find that I am currently unable to use the normally excellent War Gratuities website (due to a Windows problem I gather), so I wondered if someone could look up the enlistment date for a man who died on 22 March 1918, and received a gratuity of £9.

 

Thanks in anticipation,

 

Martin

 

(Just noticed this is my 1,000th post!)

 Looking at the date and amount I'd assume he was a private with a type 1 gratuity ? - If so this would then give £11 gross for 22 months qualifying service.

Craig

[taylorsearcher]

On the soldiers effects records above, what are the figures in red on the right hand side of each record?

 

[ss002d6252]

21 minutes ago, taylorsearcher said:

On the soldiers effects records above, what are the figures in red on the right hand side of each record?

 

Figure on the left is the gratuity being credited to the soldiers account and the figure on the right is it being paid out - during the war the gratuity figures were always shown in the red ink.

Craig

[taylorsearcher]

The Soldiers Effects record(s) for my ancestor - Alfred Nelson Baker No. 199140 CSM 58th Labour Company - appears to show a graturity of £26 10s., following his death 19 October 1918.  What service START DATE would this indicate ?

 

His Attestation papers for WW1 were lost, but I have those (x 2) when he signed up for service in the Boar War.  He was a territorial with the Royal Fusiliers (8972 & 9097) at that time.  From the records it seems that he joined WW1 as No. 90, 1st London Regiment, later being transferred to the Labour Corp, but I cannot find the Attestation date.

 

Any help / suggestions would be helpful.

 

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, taylorsearcher said:

The Soldiers Effects record(s) for my ancestor - Alfred Nelson Baker No. 199140 CSM 58th Labour Company - appears to show a graturity of £26 10s., following his death 19 October 1918.  What service START DATE would this indicate ?

 

His Attestation papers for WW1 were lost, but I have those (x 2) when he signed up for service in the Boar War.  He was a territorial with the Royal Fusiliers (8972 & 9097) at that time.  From the records it seems that he joined WW1 as No. 90, 1st London Regiment, later being transferred to the Labour Corp, but I cannot find the Attestation date.

 

Any help / suggestions would be helpful.

 

A CSM would be a WOII so this would give 51 months qualifying service at the time of his death.

The gratuity would indicate he enlisted in the month from 20 Aug 14.

Craig

[taylorsearcher]

Thanks Craig

Out of interest I attach a newspaper article relating to CSM Baker.  He demise is mentioned in a book, written by Captain T C Thomas of the 58th Labour Company ("With a Labour Company in France")

58th Labour Corps.rtf

[taylorsearcher]

Can anyone suggest why on the Soldier's Effects Register, this soldier has two separate records - seemingly with the same details and death date - and one of those records has two monetary entries ?

 

[ss002d6252]

13 minutes ago, taylorsearcher said:

Can anyone suggest why on the Soldier's Effects Register, this soldier has two separate records - seemingly with the same details and death date - and one of those records has two monetary entries ?

 

It's a clerical error and the records were later linked to reflect that. It's relatively common to see - they had upwards of 1 million entries to make so some errors do happen (although amazingly low in the circumstances).

In respect of the multiple payments recorded it was a case of clerical records catching up as bits of payments were settled up and credited to the accounts.

[Rocketman]

Hello - I am looking at my Great Uncle Tommy Batty's information on The soldiers effects register which I just found online at my local library.

Can someone please tell me what information this gives me?

I know his unit (2nd &1st Field Co RE West Riding Div, Sapper) & his service number (2719) and date of death (01/07/1916) but what else can be found?

thanks in advance:-

[ss002d6252]

Just now, Rocketman said:

Hello - I am looking at my Great Uncle Tommy Batty's information on The soldiers effects register which I just found online at my local library.

Can someone please tell me what information this gives me?

I know his unit (2nd &1st Field Co RE West Riding Div, Sapper) & his service number (2719) and date of death (01/07/1916) but what else can be found?

thanks in advance:-

 

You can determine his length of service from the figure in red.

https://wargratuity.uk/war-gratuity-calculator/

 

Craig

[Rocketman]

26 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

You can determine his length of service from the figure in red.

https://wargratuity.uk/war-gratuity-calculator/

 

Craig

Wow thank you. He was a sapper in the RE, 2nd & 1st West Riding Regiment. I know from his diary that he left Redmires training camp, Sheffield for France, on October 18th 1915. So that means he was training for about 5 months after he joined up. Would that be about right? Or would there have been a period of limbo after joining up?

Is "York 7/16" in column 5 the place where he joined up? any indication of where he joined up? 

Thanks again Jeremy

[ss002d6252]

Quote

"York 7/16" in column 5 the place where he joined up

That's reference to whichever pay office had dealt with him.

Quote

So that means he was training for about 5 months after he joined up

5-6 months was the norm but, as ever, it was all at the whim of the army.
 

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Soldiers Died in The Great War - available on Ancestry - says he enlisted in Sheffield.

Craig

[Rocketman]

4 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

That's reference to whichever pay office had dealt with him.

5-6 months was the norm but, as ever, it was all at the whim of the army.
 

Craig

Craig thank you very much - great info .. adding to the story of poor old Tommy - as a Sapper, buliding officers latrines, ladders and stables, then given a tin hat and a rifle and dead within 2 days in an assembly trench first day of the Somme.  

Jeremy

[clk]

Hi Jeremy,

 

1 hour ago, Rocketman said:

He was a sapper in the RE, 2nd & 1st West Riding Regiment

 

The 2/1 [2nd line, 1st] West Riding Field Company, Royal Engineers were later renamed as the 458 Field Company, RE. Their war diary is available from the National Archives (£3.50) from here. (It is also available on Ancestry, but from there you have to download it a page at a line). His medal rolls (on Ancestry) indicate that he arrived in France on 21.10.1915. On 23rd October 1915, the diary notes "A draft of 22 sappers & 8 drivers received from England". It specifically names Thomas as one of the casualties in the entry for 1.7.1916. In his CWGC records the concentration sheet says that he was originally buried at (map sheet 57d) reference W.5.a.2.9 which is probably close to where he fell. There is help on reading map references here. This link should open up on a map from August 1916 with square W.5 in the centre.

 

On Ancestry the war diary is under 'Piece 2783'

 

 

 

Regards

Chris

[Phil Wood]

I am looking at a soldier who died in Feb 1919 of flu.  His father received his war gratuity of £18 (Soldier's effect ledger entry).

 

On the assumption that the gratuity was paid up to Nov 1918 I calculate this to mean that he had 38 months service (£5 for first 12 months, 10s (x26) to make £18).  

 

This would suggest enlistment in or around Sept 1915 - is my assumption/calculation correct?

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, Phil Wood said:

I am looking at a soldier who died in Feb 1919 of flu.  His father received his war gratuity of £18 (Soldier's effect ledger entry).

 

On the assumption that the gratuity was paid up to Nov 1918 I calculate this to mean that he had 38 months service (£5 for first 12 months, 10s (x26) to make £18).  

 

This would suggest enlistment in or around Sept 1915 - is my assumption/calculation correct?

War Gratuity was accrued up to 3 August 1919.

 

Who is the man ?

 

Craig

[Phil Wood]

On 09/04/2019 at 16:08, ss002d6252 said:

War Gratuity was accrued up to 3 August 1919.

 

Who is the man ?

 

Craig

Thanks Craig, I shall recalculate!

 

This is the chap:

 

CWGC

Private                                PERKINS, WILLIAM JOHN

Service Number                 20515

Died                                    28/02/1919

Aged                                   23

                                           6th Bn. Somerset Light Infantry

                                           Son of John and Martha Perkins, of 2, St. Mary's Cottages, London Rd., Newbury.

Buried at                             SHAW CEMETERY, NEWBURY

 

Taken prisoner in the Spring Offensive, repatriated Dec 1918 and died in the flu epidemic, Feb 1919.

[ss002d6252]

9 minutes ago, Phil Wood said:

Thanks Craig, I shall recalculate!

 

This is the chap:

 

CWGC

Private                                PERKINS, WILLIAM JOHN

Service Number                 20515

Died                                    28/02/1919

Aged                                   23

                                           6th Bn. Somerset Light Infantry

                                           Son of John and Martha Perkins, of 2, St. Mary's Cottages, London Rd., Newbury.

Buried at                             SHAW CEMETERY, NEWBURY

 

Taken prisoner in the Spring Offensive, repatriated Dec 1918 and died in the flu epidemic, Feb 1919. 

https://wargratuity.uk/war-gratuity-calculator/

 

Craig