Starlight Posted 20 November , 2017 Share Posted 20 November , 2017 This is a long shot but I'm trying to determine the markings for a particular SPAD VII (B1623) on charge with 23 Squadron from May 1917 until it went MIA with its pilot 2nd Lt William Whitaker on the 6th December 1917. In looking at various reference books and photos of individual SPADS that were on charge with 23 Squadron during 1917 and early 1918, there appears to be a wide range of markings, from mixtures of PC-10 and natural varnish finish to greys and camouflage, with different markings on the engine cowling according to which flight each aircraft belonged. In addition, during the early months of 1917 each SPAD bore a single numeral after of the fuselage cockade, but later in the year this was replaced by a single letter and a white triangle. Does anyone have a photograph of B1623 that would enable me to be certain as to its markings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James A Pratt III Posted 21 November , 2017 Share Posted 21 November , 2017 you might want to post this question on WW1aircraftmodels.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fetubi Posted 22 November , 2017 Share Posted 22 November , 2017 Hi Steve, Hopefully someone will come up with a photo of B1623 but I've never seen one. The markings of 23 Sqn in that Spring and Summer do seem "all over the place" given other photos I've seen of downed 23 Sqn SPADS through these months. There's nothing consistent at all, as far as I can see - which makes the thought of a photo of it all the more compelling. Good luck mate (Enjoy the cricket!) Trevor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 23 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 23 November , 2017 Thanks Trevor, I was afraid that this might be the case. I have even read somewhere that squadron commanders in the field sometimes chose not to follow directives in applying letters and/or symbols to their aircraft towards the end of 1917. I'll keep on searching for a photo of B1623 - for the moment at any rate. As with most Ashes matches, the first day has proved to be unpredictable - but isn't that what makes the sport (and the contest) all the more enjoyable, whichever side you happen to be supporting? I'm an Englishman living in Australia and you're an Australian living in England, so I expect we both have divided loyalties! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted 23 November , 2017 Share Posted 23 November , 2017 G'day mate, I could not find any photos of B1623, but I found out this aircraft was flown by 2Lt. W. Whitaker. This may help in tracking down a photograph, I don't know. Hope it is of assistance. Cheerio, Caleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted 23 November , 2017 Share Posted 23 November , 2017 (edited) Here is more info on 2Lt William Whitaker. 23 sqn RFC. KIA 06/12/17, aged 19. Last seen NE of Ypres on Reserve Patrol. Went missing in SPAD B1623. Caleb Edited 23 November , 2017 by Biggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 23 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 23 November , 2017 On 11/22/2017 at 10:50, James A Pratt III said: you might want to post this question on WW1aircraftmodels.com Thanks, I will do that. In looking at some of the posts on their website, it is even more apparent that there was no consistency in the colours of 23 Squadron. There is even mention of a SPAD in 'natural' colours being hastily doped in PC-10 some time after delivery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 23 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 23 November , 2017 21 minutes ago, Biggles said: Here is more info on 2Lt William Whitaker. 23 sqn RFC. KIA 06/12/17, aged 19. Last seen NE of Ypres on Reserve Patrol. Went missing in SPAD B1623. Caleb Thanks Caleb, I've not seen that photo before. Any idea when it was taken as he is not in uniform? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted 23 November , 2017 Share Posted 23 November , 2017 Sorry, I have no idea when it was taken. I found it on pinterest , with some breif info on him. They are certainly not a SPAD's wings! I will try and look into it more. Cheers, Caleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted 23 November , 2017 Share Posted 23 November , 2017 15 minutes ago, Starlight said: Thanks Caleb, I've not seen that photo before. Any idea when it was taken as he is not in uniform? Steve Found it! Willliam Whitaker, pilots licence 08/06/16, in a Caudron aircraft, at Ruffy- Bauman school, Hendon. Born, 04/08/1898, in Leeds. Cheers, Caleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 23 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 23 November , 2017 Excellent detective work. Thanks Caleb! With the funny shape of the wing, a Caudron makes sense. So he was only 17 years old when he gained his licence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernoullis Posted 28 November , 2017 Share Posted 28 November , 2017 (edited) Starlight, a friend and I are researching the life of Major Arthur W. Keen MC, who served with 40 Sqn on two separate tours in 1917 and 1918. Amongst the family archive of letters, photos, documents medals etc, upon which our research is based, I came across a handful of unpublished photos of 23 Sqn SPAD VII aircraft. Keen appears to have snapped these photos at Bruay aerodrome, where 40 Sqn were based 1917 and 1918. I have a recollection that we deduced that the SPAD photos were probably taken around May 1917, but cannot be sure on that (Keen's first tour with 40 Sqn ran from 27 April to 17 Nov 1917). It would be best to check with someone who has accurate information about 23 Sqn's location history, and confirm precisely when in 1917 that 23 Sqn were briefly based at Bruay. In 2014, with the permission of Keen's descendent family, I offered the SPAD photos, with some background info, to Cross & Cockade for publication. C & C published the photos in their Autumn 2014 journal (Vol.45 No.3) and you can see the first page of the 2-page article by downloading this single-page PDF from the C & C website (the same link is included on this page of the C & C website). It seems that you can purchase all 4 editions of the C & C journal from the Vol.45 set, but if you contact C & C directly you can enquire if it is possible to obtain just the one edition. Edited 28 November , 2017 by Bernoullis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topgun1918 Posted 28 November , 2017 Share Posted 28 November , 2017 No 23 Squadron was at Bruay for a mighty short period - 29 May to 12 June 1917. Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernoullis Posted 28 November , 2017 Share Posted 28 November , 2017 2 hours ago, topgun1918 said: No 23 Squadron was at Bruay for a mighty short period - 29 May to 12 June 1917. Graeme Graeme, I am pleased to know that, because it means I wasn't too far off my presumed date! Could I please ask, where did you source those very precise dates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 28 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 November , 2017 Graeme is correct about the short time 23 Squadron was at Bruay. C G Jefford's "RAF Squadrons" has 23 Squadron at Bruay from 29th May to 13th June 1917, which is very similar. Thanks Bernoullis also for the link to C&C, as I went through my C&C archives and found the very journal I needed. There are a few 23 Squadron SPAD VIIs shown on the two pages, all finished in the French clear (pale yellow) dope and a couple with the engine cowling painted in radial stripes (probably blue and white - according to Rogers' "British Aviation Squadron Markings of WW1"), an early method that 23 Squadron used to identify which flight an aircraft belonged to. As a matter of interest, the only SPAD VII identified in the photos on the second page (B1534) is of the same vintage as B1623, both of French manufacture and delivered to the squadron on 13th April and 1st May 1917 (respectively) when the squadron was based at Auchel. In all probability, B1623 would have been finished in the same colours, the only difference being the flight markings on the engine cowling, which could have been black and white radial stripes, blue and white radial stripes or just plain red in colour (also according to Rogers' book). I'me getting a little closer . . . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topgun1918 Posted 28 November , 2017 Share Posted 28 November , 2017 My source was "The Squadrons of the Royal Air Force" by James J Halley (1980 vintage!) Maybe time to treat myself to something more up-to-date... Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 28 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 28 November , 2017 In looking at the history of B1623, it appears that it would never have been at Bruay, since on the 25th May 1917, it Ran into sunken road on boundary of field after e/f on t/o from f/l between Cauchy and Ferfay. The aircraft was transported to the 1AD for reconstruction and wasn't returned to the squadron until 25th August 1917 by which time the squadron had moved to la Lovie. 10 minutes ago, topgun1918 said: My source was "The Squadrons of the Royal Air Force" by James J Halley (1980 vintage!) Maybe time to treat myself to something more up-to-date... Graeme Who's to say which author was correct, Graeme. We can only go with what we have and trust that it is correct. At least neither of us is quoting from Wikipedia! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted 29 November , 2017 Share Posted 29 November , 2017 Here are some illistrations of 23 sqn SPAD's. Hopefully they give you an idea of colour schemes. This seems to be a dificult bit of research, I will continue my Detective work! Cheerio and good luck ol' boy, Caleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 29 November , 2017 Author Share Posted 29 November , 2017 Thanks for the detective work, Caleb, it all helps. By the time the SPAD XIII arrived at 23 Squadron - as shown in the drawing of B6732 above - the colouring and numbering system was standardised. I've seen a couple of photos of the squadron's complete line-up in Feb 1918 which confirm this. The SPAD VIIs colouring and identification, at least with regards to 23 Squadron, was another matter altogether, with numerous and inconsistent artist impressions but very few actual photos. I think the only way to resolve my problem once and for all is to find a photo of B1623 or at least a contemporary description of it. Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted 5 December , 2017 Share Posted 5 December , 2017 Hello Chaps, Just to let you know it is 100 years to the day, since Second Lieutenant William Whitaker, aged 19, 23 sqn RFC, went missing in SPAD B1623. It is still unknown how he was killed. 'We Shall Remember Them.' Tally-ho, Caleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted 6 December , 2017 Share Posted 6 December , 2017 Hello again, More info on the death of 2Lt. Whitaker, courtesy of the Aerodrome forum. From Lt Josef Jacob's diary.... "....later some SPADs arrived at the front, I got one immediately from behind whereupon he disappeared vertically down." "This mornings SPAD was confirmed by Ballon 3. " 4 strong 23 Sqn OP led by Lt MN Jennings - attacked a 2-seater at 0925BT, only to have 4 EA scouts come down on them with 6 more above. These would appear to have been Js 7 led by Jacobs BUT two machines of Js 27 also appear to have got involved. Js 27's Vfw Kampe was credited with a Spad N Becalaere at 1035GT and naturally accorded diesseits (must be the missing Whitaker). Jacobs did indeed claim and was credited with a Spad - Passchendael 1035GT BUT given as jenseits - so not Whitaker. However, I know Jennings guns stopped and he had to break off and return and me thinks this might reflect the Jacobs claim. Aware Jacobs got some form of confirmation from BZ 3, but be aware a 10 Naval Camel FTL Brit side an hour later and this might be what BZ 3 saw. There may be other documents written by Jacobs or Kampe that describe B1623's colour scheme etc. Hope this is of interest and can assist you, Steve, in your search. Cheers, Caleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 8 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2017 Very intriguing - thanks Caleb. Do you have a date for Lt Josef Jacob's diary entry.? Is it for the 6th December? As far as I'm aware, only one SPAD was shot down that day. From what you write, it would appear that Lt Whitaker was part of a four aircraft offensive patrol as the 2-seater EA was attacked at exactly the same time Whitaker's SPAD was last seen. Thanks again Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted 8 December , 2017 Share Posted 8 December , 2017 (edited) G'day Steve, Vfw Kampe shot down Whitaker. Kampe's claim is for 1035 German time and 0935 British time. There must have been more than one SPAD shot down, as Jacobs claims a SPAD too. Yes, Jacobs diary is for the 6th. This following link follows the conversation regarding this subject. http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/showthread.php?t=69015&page=2 Hope you can follow the thread! Let me know if you need any more info, and I will do my best. Cheers, Caleb Edited 8 December , 2017 by Biggles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biggles Posted 8 December , 2017 Share Posted 8 December , 2017 Here is a very clear explanation, Steve. The Kampe claim was listed diesseits - German for 'this side', the Jacobs claim was listed jenseits - German for 'other side'. Whitaker, like oh so many British fighter pilots, was listed missing - in other words down on the German side. There was only one loss to the 23 Sqn formation - Whitaker! Contrary to a lot of mythology, just because German pilots were credited with a victory, does not automatically mean they actually downed an Allied machine - the hard, but avoided truth for many, is that many a German jenseits claim does not actually reflect a downed Allied machine. As I intimated in my post #5 Jacobs may well have claimed the Spad of Lt Jennings who flew back to British lines when his gun jammed. - By Russ Gannon (Aerodrome Forum) Hope this wipes out all future questions regarding Whitaker! Cheers, Caleb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starlight Posted 10 December , 2017 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2017 From all that has been written on this forum and the Aerodrome Forum about what happened to Lt Whitaker, it looks like we have a 'who shot the Red Baron' situation, with the answer as to which of the two German pilots was victorious riding on two German words, 'diesseits' and 'jenseits'. I've examined all of the SPAD VII serials and can confirm that only one was shot down on the 6th December 1917, namely William Whitaker's B1623. In addition, no SPAD was reported as being damaged on that day either, which makes the idea of a highly experienced Jacobs, (already with ten victories to his name) claiming a victory simply by watching SPAD he was attacking go down, without first confirming that he had indeed damaged it (or the pilot) enough to cause the aircraft to crash, totally unbelievable. If the British aircraft he attacked from behind was in fact Jennings' SPAD with Jennings' gun was jammed, surely the outcome would never have been in doubt and the SPAD would have been shot down or at least badly damaged before Jennings could make good his escape. But as we know, only one SPAD was shot down that day . . . . . . At least there is no dispute over Kampe's claim later that day re the Sopwith Camel B2464. All very fascinating. Maybe more evidence will come to light, both on who shot down Lt Whitaker's SPAD and also the colour scheme of his aircraft. Thanks again for your help. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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