Help with units please

[ForeignGong]

Hi

I am researching a soldier who was with the 25th (Service) Battalion (Frontiersmen) and according to LLT they were formed in London on 12 February 1915 by the Legion of Frontiersmen.
10 April 195 : embarked at Plymouth for East Africa, arriving Mombasa 4 May 1915.
Left for England at end of May 1917. Disbanded at Putney on 29 June 1918.

 

At some stage he transferred to 2/9th (Highlanders) Battalion. Once again LLT has them formed at Edinburgh in September 1914. Moved to Peebles in May 1915.
November 1915 : attached to 195th Brigade, 65th Division at Tillicoultry. Renamed 20th Bn until January 1916
Moved to Essex in March 1916, going on to Tralee in January 1917. Moved to Limerick in July 1917.
Disbanded near Fermoy in March 1918.

 

The chap is Reginald Harold Shoobridge who was awarded a Serbian Silver Medal of Valour( Milos Obilic Medal for Bravery) whilst according to the LG, 19 Sept 1919 he was 49668 serving with 2/9th Royal Scots. But above it states that they were disbanded in March 1918. It seems a bit strange that the gazette would be over 19 months later.

 

I am trying to find out which unit he was serving with so I can order the appropriate WD.

 

Any advise will be greatly appreciated.

 

 

[Neill Gilhooley]

To my disappointment I do not have him recorded in my index https://neillgilhooley.com/9th-royal-scots/index/

All I can tell you is that 49668 would not have been an original 9th Royal Scots serial number. Also I have not found a War Diary for the 2/9th, as they did not serve overseas, but from here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/221st_Mixed_Brigade there is the suggestion there might be something under 221 Mixed Brigade here http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4558610

Finally there is a small amount on 65th Division here 

 

[Neill Gilhooley]

I note he is on the 15 Star Medal Roll as "Depot Royal Scots".

The only near numbers I find in my index are 49667 and 49670.

[ForeignGong]

Here is the LG

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31560/supplement/11759

 

This is what I am working with. If they didn't serve OS why have the unit as 2/9 RS. I'm confused..........

 

I was hoping the WD may give me a reason and place for the award.

[Neill Gilhooley]

They did plan to deploy 2/9, but sent them to Ireland instead (not counted as overseas). There was also a third line 3/9 that was intended for recruits.

[Neill Gilhooley]

I like the correction! https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31586/supplement/12416/data.pdf

[Steven Broomfield]

2 minutes ago, Neill Gilhooley said:

I like the correction! https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31586/supplement/12416/data.pdf

 

Never mind the quality - feel the width.

[SteveE]

On 17/11/2017 at 15:41, ForeignGong said:

Here is the LG

 

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31560/supplement/11759

 

This is what I am working with. If they didn't serve OS why have the unit as 2/9 RS. I'm confused..........

 

I was hoping the WD may give me a reason and place for the award.

Shoobridge isn’t mentioned in the 25th RF war diary so I don’t believe that’s the unit he was with for the award to be given.

 

There’s something slightly odd about the LG listings for that particular medal in that there’s a good number of Home Service units shown. Digging a little deeper a number of the awardees have service records available which lists the award of the medal but not why.  The latter part of their service was all ‘at home’ and the link in most of them is that they were employed on clerical duties in various departments at the War Office.  I wonder if this is a case of “we’ve got a few ‘foreign awards’ left over”, who can we give them to? 

 

Steve

[ForeignGong]

Hi Steve

Thanks for looking up the 25th RF WD for me.

Seems a bit strange that they would hand medals of Valour to clerical staff. Even thought the original LG said "Silver Medal for value" the LG in Neil's second post above has the correction to Valour. This medal is the Milos Obilic Medal for Bravery.

 

This is his 1914-15 Star roll

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/5119/41804_636897_11362-00302/5851487?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3fdb%3dIWOServiceMedalAwardRolls%26gss%3dsfs28_ms_db%26new%3d1%26rank%3d1%26msT%3d1%26gsln%3dShoobridge%26gsln_x%3d1%26_F8007A65%3d12856%26MSAV%3d1%26uidh%3dm51&backlabel=ReturnSearchResults

 

Peter

 

[Steven Broomfield]

11 minutes ago, ForeignGong said:

Hi Steve

Thanks for looking up the 25th RF WD for me.

Seems a bit strange that they would hand medals of Valour to clerical staff. Even thought the original LG said "Silver Medal for value" the LG in Neil's second post above has the correction to Valour. This medal is the Milos Obilic Medal for Bravery.

 

 

Peter

 

 

I suspect foreign awards were viewed differently, with an allocation made to formations to pass down to units, and recommendations made for blokes who deserved something but were not going to get a 'proper' medal.

[ForeignGong]

Hi Steven

I disagree with that assumption, as ALL the recommendations / citations for foreign awards that I have seen, have been for the appropriate medal / decoration. There has never been a citation for good service for a foreign bravery award. As I stated above the correction is for "Valour". Possibly a few during the war may have been given for non valour.

 

Peter

[SteveE]

11 hours ago, ForeignGong said:

Hi Steven

I disagree with that assumption, as ALL the recommendations / citations for foreign awards that I have seen, have been for the appropriate medal / decoration. There has never been a citation for good service for a foreign bravery award. As I stated above the correction is for "Valour". Possibly a few during the war may have been given for non valour.

 

Peter

Peter

 

In this instance I tend to agree with Mr. Broomfield that the awarding of these particular medals to those listed in the London Gazette was very likely made "for blokes who deserved something but were not going to get a 'proper' medal". 

 

Service records (to various extents) exist for at least eight of those on the list (300147 A. Alexander, 362 F. V. Aldridge, 720329 S. Beal, 9921 W. Blakey, 163512 T. W. Brett, 682205 W. H. Clark, 5838 J. O'Hara & 680109 L. F. Pearce) and the overriding factor on the majority of them is that 1) they were wounded whilst serving overseas and 2) they were employed in some capacity at the War Office towards the end of their home service (I've attached a snippet of a record available on FMP that shows that the subject of this post 49668 Shoolridge (sic) was also employed at the War Office).

 

You made a point in your opening post that "It seems a bit strange that the gazette would be over 19 months later."  If the medals were awarded appropriately for 'valour' then the London Gazette listing on 19/09/1919 was a considerable period of time after all of the overseas service of the men listed;

Alexander 09/11/1914 to 27/09/1915

Aldridge 24/02/1917 to 16/05/1917

Beal 15/03/1915 to 02/06/1915

Blakey 31/01/1917 to 12/08/1917

Brett 14/03/1915 to 25/09/1916

Clark 24/06/1916 to 10/06/1917

O'Hara 10/09/1914 to 28/10/1914

Pearce 14/03/1915 to 12/06/1915

 

I appreciate that it "Seems a bit strange that they would hand medals of Valour to clerical staff" but I can't help thinking that the employment of the majority of them at the War Office is too much of a coincidence in this instance.

 

Regards

 

Steve

[ForeignGong]

Many thanks Steve

I concede defeat on this one. Where did you get the attached snippet??????

Now know why his name was spelt wrong in the Gazette, he was Shoobridge and the only doc that is correct is his medal roll for the 1914-15 star, obviously when he received his star.

Note on MIC that it was returned.

I still can't confirm MID, as Ems noted on MIC as well.

 

 

Peter

Edited 20 November , 2017 by ForeignGong

[Steven Broomfield]

Thanks Steve and Mr Gong.

[SteveE]

19 hours ago, ForeignGong said:

Many thanks Steve

I concede defeat on this one. Where did you get the attached snippet??????

Now know why his name was spelt wrong in the Gazette, he was Shoobridge and the only doc that is correct is his medal roll for the 1914-15 star, obviously when he received his star.

Note on MIC that it was returned.

I still can't confirm MID, as Ems noted on MIC as well.

Peter

 

The attached snippet was culled from one of the many 'loose' sheets contained within service records that very often have no relation to the man whose records they are in but do contain other names.  FindMyPast have seen fit to catalogue/index these sheets and they turn up some real gems of information at times that would otherwise be impossible to find, I just searched Shoobridge and Shoolridge (as per the Gazette) and chanced upon that one.

 

As for Shoobridge's MID that's one that I have also failed to confirm, I've always assumed it's an East African MID whilst with the 25th RF but have never been able to find it...

 

Regards

 

Steve  

[Neill Gilhooley]

Just to add what is obvious from LLT, that 2/4th Royal Scots disbanded August 1917 and were absorbed into the other battalions of the brigade, presumably 2/9th in this case. Therefore his War Office service may post-date this.

[ForeignGong]

To Neill and both Steve's

Much appreciate the input and effort, you have all added extra info for my database. This has been an unusual award to say the least.

 

Many thanks

 

Peter