Captain, King's Royal Rifle Corps - Passchendaele New British Cemetery

[MBrockway]

 

We’ve already established that Tate was almost certainly captured wounded and then died in enemy hands with burial organised by a German officer, yet he has no German-originated record at the ICRC.

 

If our unknown 60th officer in the Salient is indeed Tate, then the enemy med-evaced him several km back down their lines before burying him.

 

Granted he may still have died short of a German RAP.

 

Likewise the two 60th officers found together at Gudecourt in the Somme sector were just to the side of a communication trench.  I cannot be confident they were at a German RAP - particularly if they were 1918 Kaiserschlacht casualties, rather than from 1916 Flers/Courcelette - but the location definitely fits (among others) the scenario of death while being med-evaced by the Germans.

 

What is your evidence that ALL Allied deaths at German RAP’s have German-originated ICRC records?  The enemy rear areas during the Battle of Langemarck were in chaos according to German sources. Same true for both Flers and the Kaiserschlacht. Accurate records of deaths located specifically at British RAP’s are not abundant even in our own archives let alone in the ICRC data. I’m surprised you can be so confident that absence of a German-originated record at the ICRC proves British officers could not have died at a German RAP.

 

I am far from certain myself that this is the correct scenario, but I don’t think the evidence allows us to eliminate it just yet.

 

Mark

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

What is your evidence that ALL Allied deaths at German RAP’s have German-originated ICRC records?

 

    I have none- just standard practice-to which there are always exceptions. But you know that already, so setting Everest-type  historical questions is rather pointless.  All MY personal experience with any casualties that reached any form of German medical posts is that records were kept well.  But as I do not have access to the full extent of German records of the war- let alone any will to do so, then I put up  an educated guess on "probabilities"-which in the end is the best that any of us can do. In strict evidential terms, I have no firm evidence that an officer's body was not picked up by an invisible Martian space-ship and transported  somewhere else...... but do you have firm  evidence that this is not so?

   Evidence has it's limits. What doesn''t fit with firm evidence has to be balance of best probabilities thereafter. As it is, modern use of records, maps, databases suggests to me that, in all probability, a further problem may be that some existing British CWGC memorials are incorrect. If we are using more refined eviidence  sifting techniques, then it suggests to me that some of those "firmly" identified by the concentration teams may have been misidentified.

[MBrockway]

Certainly I've never seen mention of Martian abduction in the war diaries, though of course in Twelve Monkeys time travelling Bruce Willis was dropped by accident into the thick of Verdun long enough to get wounded

 

Your reply has encouraged me to have a closer look at the ICRC records though - I confess I'm not that familiar with the German-originated data there ... and that was largely why I challenged you on it.  An opinion based on personal experience from you is good enough to justify such a foray.

 

I completely agree with you about the risks that some of the CWGC 'Missing' evidence on which these worthwhile projects are based being unreliable:  I'm gathering some details on this for laughton, which I'll post eventually.

 

As he was both KRRC and a New College man, I'd be extremely pleased to bring Captain Tate 'in from the cold', but sadly I fear we are some way off this yet.

 

Mark

 

[Guest]

  Hi Mark- Tate presents some problems of evidence.  He appears to be the only casualty of 10KRRC that day- was he serving with another battalion?  I confess ignorance on this but if he was wounded and still directing, then it seems odd that he is the only recorded casualty of an infantry attack.

 

2)  The ICRC card is a good guide- contemporary and from more than one source. The cards do not have reference to Tate's name on a list of casualties handed over- I cannot see how if he was got to a German RAP, that the Germans would not have recorded details before burial.  It would be useful to know whether there was a German post at that co-ordinate at that time. Carrying a mortally wounded officer back, seeing him die and then not keeping a record of it seems to me to make no sense at all- Medical posts on both sides did their best to keep records.

 

3)  Do we know what the information held by KRRC actually was?- I suspect it was the reports back from Germany-esp. the Saunders card.

 

4) The real problematic  record is the reference to a divisional burial party finding his body and burying it 3 weeks later- this throws up 2 problems, as I see it:

 

a) The testimony of the father is unlikely, on balance, to be wrong. Thus, a search for family papers-a long shot-may help- or a search through divisional papers for burial records- perhaps even a request to CWGC on this point.

 

ii) IF- but a strong presumption- a divisional burial report has gone astray, then thinking 3 weeks forward from Tate's death may help a little. A divisional burial party had to be working on the British side of the line-  was the map location for Tate back in British hands c. 3 weeks later????   If it was, then it would add strongly to the case for Tate being the man. BUT it weakens the case for death at a German RAP- why would he not have been buried (unless the Germans were pushed back very soon on or after 11th August 1917-which then begs the question as to why the British didn't bury him before-and identify him.   Let's be blunt-a body left out for 3 weeks in August 1917 would likely be put under earth as quickly as possible.)   

      I think there is still some mileage on the Tate case.  Bruce Willis? Twelve Monkeys?  Glad to see that the common weal of the realm invetsed wisely in a New College education!   

 

 

Edited 26 March , 2018 by Guest

[MBrockway]

10/KRRC's casualties for the operation on 11 Aug 1917 were ...

 

Killed: 8 OR's

Wounded: 1 officer, 32 OR's

Missing: 4 officers (Capt Jones, Capt Tate, 2/Lt Haycroft & 2/Lt Lovatt), 85 OR's.

 

Entries in the KRRC sources suggest the regiment received official notification on 27 Oct 1917 that Capt Tate had died of wounds in enemy hands.

 

Tate was leading C Coy on the left of the attack.  The attack took place in the ground between the Steenbeek and Langemarck.  The objective was a line approx 200 yds E of the Steenbeek including the Au Bon Gite strongpoint.  The units involved were all cut off, isolated and believed captured, bar those that either failed to leave the start line (A Coy had some platoons disorganised in the start line by an enemy MG barrage just before Zero) or managed to rejoin the British line.

 

All this ground was captured in the main battle on 16 Aug 1917 when the line was advanced in depth some 2,000 yds E of the Steenbeek.  It was held by the Allies until the German 1918 Spring Offensive.

 

The attack of the 16 Aug also saw the capture of the CO, and 19 further officers (mainly) of the German 262nd RIR and 261st RIR occupying Langemarck.  It is likely that some intelligence of the fate of the men missing from the 11 Aug attack was obtained from these POW's.

 

 

[Guest]

   Tate has an additional card below the 3 from which the one illustrated already comes.

 

    2 items of interest in this:

 i) The German response of 25th November 1917  states that Tate had been killed and that this was communicated to the family.- seemingly on 19th November 1917.

 

ii) A small problem with the testimony of 3073 Saunders- According to the PA reports against his ICRC card  he was not captured until 30th November 1917- that is, AFTER, the Germans had replied that Tate had been killed. Thus, Saunders-if this is correct- cannot be the source of the information that Tate was dead of 19th/25th November 1917-as Saunders was not then "in the bag".

   Would seem to confirm that Tate was killed and not a POW...so back to RAP,etc.