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mrfrank

18th Bn (1st Public Schools) Royal Fusiliers

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mrfrank

Before I continue trawling through the medal rolls, does anyone know if there's a 1915 nominal roll for this battalion in any publication etc? I have a 1915 named photograph of 2 Platoon, A Company that just has the surnames with no initials. Cheers. 

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Colin W Taylor

Mr Frank,

 

I have been compiling a list of members of the UPS, including 18th RF over a couple of years with about 7,500 names; it will always be incomplete as the medal rolls do not include those who left sick or commissioned before the Brigade went overseas.  The only sources for service numbers of those who left early is through officer files at Kew.  I have company information for  a few but platoon information for very few - I could only name nineteen men of A Coy at present.

 

I'm happy to look up surnames but it may not be easy to track them all without initials.  Please publish any surnames on here or feel free to send me a private message for me to work through.  I'm slowly writing a book on the brigade and would be interested to see the photo as I'm trying to get likenesses for some of those who served.  Do you have a date for the photo beyond the year; this might help narrow down the names.

 

Kind regards

 

Colin

 

 

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mrfrank

Hello Colin, 

                    Many thanks for your reply and offer of help.....In an effort to identify some of those featured I've spent some time trying to look up names in the WW1 medal rolls, but it is such a frustrating process and not very user friendly to say the least!

As was common, I think the photograph was probably taken shortly before their departure for France in mid-November 1915. I'll take and post an image of the photo in here tomorrow when I have better light, but here are the surnames to the mount...... I started on the officers/NCOs and have made some poss/prob identifications:

 

Capt Henry Smurthwaite

2nd Lt Dudley Mark Hayward Jewell (Kia 20Jan16 attd RE)

Sgt Harris

Cpl Faulkener 

Cpl    (1575 George) Hallam (Commissioned RWarwicks)

L Cpl (5828 Walter Hamilton) Brodie (Kia 09Apr17, 15RS)

L Cpl (6563 Samuel Newman) Carley (Kia 25Sep17, 207 Coy MGC)

L Cpl (6027 William Edward) Crouch (MC) (Comm 10th E Surreys)

L Cpl Hessey

L Cpl (1773 Hugh)  Manners (Kia 24Apr17, 52 Coy MGC)

L Cpl Webster 

 

Privates listed next.......

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mrfrank

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mrfrank

Privates.......

 

Proctor

Bell

Walley

Day

Murgatroyd ( 6590 Thomas) 

Rose

Bowmer   (6636 Herbert Edgar)

Carley       (6564 Thomas Eley) 

Brown

Archer

Barrow

Catchpole

Street

Crappe or Grappe 

Harrop    (7562 Ernest)

Dean

Nixon      (1865 Cecil William Edward)

Guy

Pickford (6954 Herbert Thomas Reade - Kia) 

Owen

Ledger     (6674 Harold Partington - Kia 20Nov17, 3Sqn RFC)

Constantinade (think this is 6388 Walter Arthur Constantinidi)

Brodie      (6661 Sidney Edward - Kia 17Apr17, 17RF)

Turner

Heaphy    (6589 William Standish)

Hoult        (6668 Robert Percy - Kia 16Aug17, 2WYR)

Ponton     (6593 Harold Frederick - Kia 29Apr17, 17RF)

Wilson

Francis

Kemp

Price

White

Fry

Moor

Smith

Hunt

James

Loney

 

Edited by mrfrank

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Colin W Taylor

Mr Frank

 

Many thanks for posting; if nothing else it adds to my knowledge of who is in which company; something that is not easy to find.  You are right; it is likely that the picture was taken shortly before the battalion departed overseas; the turnover in manpower was fairly high up until shortly before this point.

 

Capt Henry Smurthwaite - enlisted 3 Sep 1914 PS/2088; aged 33, a Ship broker from Cookham Berks; gazetted 27/10/14, Captain 2/6/15 - presumably to fulfill the role of OC A Company

 

2nd Lt Dudley Mark Hayward Jewell (Kia 20Jan16 attd RE) - enlisted 2/9/14, educated at Felsted, Essex, an all round athlete, a farmer, attached to 180th Tunnelling Company; died rying to rescue men from a mine shaft overcome by gas from an explosion

 

Sgt Harris - likely PS/1594 Norman Bradford Harris, he had his motorbike stolen whilst training at Epsom, Mentioned in Despatches 15/6/16 in France, later joined the RFC and RAF as an officer.

Cpl Faulkener  - possibly PS/6193 Cpl Francis William Falconer (either 18th or 21st RF?), from Helensburgh, later A/Sgt, 26/6/16 RAMC, Lt, Capt

Cpl    (1575 George) Hallam (King Edwards School Birmingham, worked for Lloyds Bank, Commissioned 15th RWarwicks, wounded) - possibly also  PS/7325 Ernest Cecil Hallam, later 602445 Lab Corps, Class Z 5/5/19

L Cpl (5828 Walter Hamilton) Brodie (15 RS 6/7/16, Kia 09Apr17, 15RS) - Brother of Walter - below!

L Cpl (6563 Samuel Newman) Carley (Kia 25Sep17, 207 Coy MGC) - educated at Framlingham College, a merchant, brother of Thomas below

L Cpl (6027 William Edward) Crouch (MC) (Comm 10th E Surreys), later Captain

L Cpl Hessey - Hessay? - PS/1613 LCpl James Absalom, later Sgt, sent to OCB but did not commission; later Sgt 1st RF, Class Z Res 14/3/19

L Cpl (1773 Hugh)  Manners (Kia 24Apr17, 52 Coy MGC)

L Cpl Webster - PS/2220 George Alexander, from Putney (2Lt Somerset LI)or PS/6676 Harold Pearson - clerk in a soap manufacturers, attached 180th TC (2Lt S Lancs and later IASC mule transport)

 

 

Proctor - 6609 John Hall (13th Suffolks)

Bell - 7146 William - later 632599 Lab Corps, Class Z 26/6/19

Walley - 7775 Ernest - later G/11666 E Kent R, Cpl, Class Z 5/2/19

Day - either 6050 John Clements or more likely 6587 Henry Julian Day (known to be A Coy already), Great Yarmouth Grammar School, MG Corps; died of pneumonia Oct 1918

Murgatroyd ( 6590 Thomas) - later gazetted DLI 26/9/16

Rose - 6611 Leonard David, G/50429 RF, 9th RF 11/10/16 to 14/12/17, Cpl, Class Z Res 8/2/19, died 1979, Norfolk

Bowmer   (6636 Herbert Edgar) - 52261 Glos R, LCpl, Dis 14/9/18

Carley       (6564 Thomas Eley)  also Framlingham College, Commercial Traveller, from Ipswich as his brother above.

Brown – sadly 9 options

Archer – 6863 John Archer - 246812 RE, Cpl, Class Z 26/1/19

Barrow – 7152 William Barrow, later gazetted, 16/2/17 Kings Own, Lt

Catchpole – 6145 Geoffrey H, later 87428 RDC

Street – 8091 Alfred James, later GS/73184, Cpl, Class Z 9/3/19

Crappe or Grappe – possibly 7803 Henry Thomas Crapp

Harrop    (7562 Ernest) later G/11655 7th E Kent R, Sgt, G/36798, Z Class Res 3/2/19

Dean possibly 5834 George Frederick Deane, Eversley, Southwold and Colchester Schools, 25/9/16 Essex Regt, 11th Essex, KIA 22/4/17

Nixon      (1865 Cecil William Edward), 25/9/16 Middx R, Lt

Guy – 6771 Ernest Stuart Guy, from Sidcup, later RFC and KOYLI

Pickford (6954 Herbert Thomas Reade - Kia), The Grammar School, Burford, Oxon, later gazetted 25/9/16 OBLI, KiA 25/4/17 Salonika

Owen – 4 possibles

Ledger     (6674 Harold Partington - Kia 20Nov17, 3Sqn RFC)

Constantinade (think this is 6388 Walter Arthur Constantinidi) – agreed - Sutton, Surrey and The Imperial Ottoman Bank, Jaffa, Palestine, 4/8/16 10th E Surrey, Lt Gen List, Capt Int Corps (Gen List), AAG 3rd Ech GHQ Br Salonika Force 10/3/19

Brodie      (6661 Sidney Edward – gazetted 18/12/16 to London Regt, Kia 17Apr17, 17RF)

Turner – three possibilities

Heaphy    (6589 William Standish) aged 19, Bank Clerk, 25/9/16 MGC, 176th MG Coy, Wounded Pilckem 31/7/17, Lt 03/17, 48th Bn, 21/3/19 Demob, 1/9/21 Rel Com

Hoult        (6668 Robert Percy - Kia 16Aug17, 2WYR), St Johns Foundation School for sons of poor clergy, Student,

Ponton     (6593 Harold Frederick - Kia 29Apr17, 17RF), attached 180th Tunnelling Company, 28th RF, 17th RF, KIA 29/4/17

Wilson – 4 possibles

Francis – 3771 Dudley Collin, 7/7/16 5th Y and L, A Coy KIA 13/11/16

Kemp – three possibles

Price  - ?

White – three possibles

Fry – three possibles

Moor – 6 x Moor or Moore

Smith – 10 possibles

Hunt – 4 possibles

James – likely 3819 Edmund James Tricker, later gazetted 3rd S Lancs, Captain

Loney - ?

 

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mrfrank

Thanks for that great amount of information Colin - much appreciated. Here's the image and if I can get it any sharper I'll change them. If you want any individual images or close-ups PM me.

Mike. 

 

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

Edited by mrfrank

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Colin W Taylor

Mike,

 

Many thanks for sharing this.  The barracks are definitely Tidworth and as almost none of the men listed above didn't go out with the Bn in November I would expect it to be from late October early November.  I have a couple of diaries/letters from the IWM for personnel in the Bn who may be able to suggest a more precise date; normally a photographer would come and do the whole Bn, by Platoons or Coys in one go.  I have a copy of a similar picture of a platoon from 20th RF from the IWM but without names; I presume it will be by the same company.  The distinctive barrack blocks have mostly gone but four survive in Tidworth; I couldn't therefore provide a direct before and after but could give you a comparison picture.

 

Looking at the odds a least 1/4 of the platoon (12/48) were killed/died during the war; I would presume another 1/4 were wounded.

 

I will definitely take you up on your kind offer but will contact you by PM.

 

Many thanks again.  If I find out anything more about the chap in the picture I'll let you know.  

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stiletto_33853
On 11/15/2017 at 19:10, Colin W Taylor said:

Mr Frank,

 

I have been compiling a list of members of the UPS, including 18th RF over a couple of years with about 7,500 names; it will always be incomplete as the medal rolls do not include those who left sick or commissioned before the Brigade went overseas.  The only sources for service numbers of those who left early is through officer files at Kew.  I have company information for  a few but platoon information for very few - I could only name nineteen men of A Coy at present.

 

Kind regards

 

Colin

 

 

Colin,

 

Just of a few of the 18th, 19th, 20th & 21st Royal Fusiliers that were commissioned into the Rifle Brigade and killed during the war.

I have all their service papers, if there attestation papers from their records are of help let me know. Still got to go through a few of my databases to see if there are any more for you.

 

Adam, P.             19th, 3429

Bott, G.                19th, 106

Buxton, A.R,        21st, 2496

Dunnage, A.        18th, 1446

Frisch, M.            18th, 1500

Huddart, R.W.J.  18th, 509

Irvine, C.K.            21st, 2880

Marchetti, A.        20th, 5291

Martin, R.              21st, 6887

Moore, R.              19th, 683

Patey, E.                18th, 1904

Simmonds, W.S.  19th, 887

Spanton, J.W.       21st, 3260

Thornton, N.S.      19th, 978

Vanstone, S..R.     20th, 5807

Vernede, R.E.        19th, 1021

Westacott, E.G.     18th, 3495

Williams, H.E.E.     18th, 2391

Wines, W.W.           20th, 5952

 

 

Andy

 

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Colin W Taylor

Andy,

 

That is outstanding; many thanks.  I'll have a check through and add them; a couple are familiar but some are completely new to me which mean's I've not got them. I had a quick look at RB men on my list after getting your PM and have about 30.

 

I'm very grateful for your help.

 

Regards

 

Colin  

 

P.S. I have officer files for P J Pither 14th RB (later 13th RB) and E A Batty 5th RB (later 8th RB), who were both 18th RF; happy to share if you haven't got these and they're within your area of interest.

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Colin W Taylor

Mike,

 

Attached is a poor copy of a photo of a platoon of D Coy 20th RF; presumably taken at a similar location but certainly not at the same time of day. Sadly no company mark on this one to confirm if it was the same photographer.  Attached is a shot of the surviving buildings also but not likely the exact one.

 

I'll see what else I can dig out.

 

Kind regards

 

Colin

Pic.jpg

low res.jpg

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stiletto_33853

Colin,

 

Thank you, I have Batty but not Pither. More than willing to share anything I have on my hard drives. I have not gone through all of my files as yet, the list I put up in the previous post were all KIA's, DOW or Died, a few more buried away in the KIA's, I will dig them out for you.

Regarding those that survived I have to update these on my spreadsheets.

The problem with a lot of these Rifle Brigade files are that quite a few are labelled on the NA site as Connaught Rangers, just over 100 just on the December 1914 Army List so sometimes they take a bit of digging out.

 

Andy

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mrfrank

Thanks for posting those 20RF images - even complete with the lower legs on the balcony above per my image! One thing though -do you think it could possibly be an image of the senior Company Officers and NCO's rather than a particular platoon as all those visible seem to have stripes up...and the two officers are a Major and a Capt? 

Edited by mrfrank

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stiletto_33853

mrfrank,

 

Hope this additional info to help Colin complete his UPS files does not detract from your original posting.

 

Colin,

There seems to be another 4 UPS men that ended up as officers in the 8th Rifle Brigade.

Bloomer, G.H.         2382, 20th

Crowther, D.E.         6192, 21st

Meacock, D.            2878, 21st

Savage, O.F.            1381, 20th

 

 

Andy

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Colin W Taylor

Andy,

 

That is brilliant; a very public thankyou.  PM to follow.

 

 

Mike,

 

I was looking through some photos I had of the Pow Wow and found this one of the photographer E E Turner who was obviously a fixture of the UPS brigade; from the edition dated 6 November 1915 .  I read in one account, I cannot remember which, that a photographer followed them from Epsom to Clipstone and thence to Tidworth and set up a camp in both locations.

 

Sergeant Medlicott of D Company wrote that on 26 October 1915 that his cohort was; '... thinking of having a platoon photo and a coy sergeants photo with officers, or some of them - 'ere we leave...'. From his docs at the IWM.

 

Regards

 

Colin

 

 

E E Turner.jpg

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Colin W Taylor

Mike,

 

Please see attached an obituary for Dudley Jewell from De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour.

 

Regards

 

Colin

jewell ruv obit.jpg

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mrfrank

Thanks for the extra information Colin. That drawing of the photographer is superb. 

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DavidC

Hello

I was interested to read (in a post from 2017) that you have a photograph that may feature my grandfather, Walter Arthur Constantinidi, who served on the Western Front. I am wondering if there is any chance I could see the photograph? Thus would be of great interest to my family.

many thanks

David Constant (the family shortened the name post Great Wat.

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Colin W Taylor

David,

 

Mr Frank is still active on the forum; you can send him a private message if he doesn't pick this thread up again.  I presume he may be able to provide a better scan of the photo with a better view of your grandfather (who is in the row down from the top, 3rd from the right).

 

I'm keen to find out more about him if you have any further information to what little I have on him at present.  Have you accessed his officers' file from Kew?

 

Kind regards

 

Colin

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mrfrank

Sent you a PM David in order to get a copy to you.

 

Mike

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DavidC
On 15/09/2019 at 20:31, Colin W Taylor said:

David,

 

Mr Frank is still active on the forum; you can send him a private message if he doesn't pick this thread up again.  I presume he may be able to provide a better scan of the photo with a better view of your grandfather (who is in the row down from the top, 3rd from the right).

 

I'm keen to find out more about him if you have any further information to what little I have on him at present.  Have you accessed his officers' file from Kew?

 

Kind regards

 

Colin

Hi Colin
Yes, he has been most helpful and sent me a close up of the photograph. I will send you more info, when I have some (what is the officers file? Please excuse my ignorance). I do know that he was commissioned into the East Surreys (I have his original commission document at home) and also that he was mentioned in dispatched (I also have this document) but can't remember if he was awarded this whilst with the Fusiliers - would have to check.
David

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Colin W Taylor

Hi David

 

Most WW1 officers have a file of administrative documents at the National Archives. They often also include enlistment papers from their time as enlisted soldiers. Walter's file is likely this one; you can either visit Kew and view it or pay a researcher to make a copy for you.

https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1114166

 

I can look it up when I'm next there but this might not be for a month or so.

 

Regards

 

Colin

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