Would a batman have accompanied his officer......?

[Guest]

One of the very few references I can find in the 1914-15 diaries to 'batman' is in the 6th Bn Royal Irish Fusiliers' War Diary (10th (Irish) Div)

 

BASINGSTOKE  12th July 1915.

02:00. First train load left BASINGSTOKE.  No Absentees. 

 

03:26: Second trainload left BASINGSTOKE.  No absentees. 

The Transport Officer Lt C BARTON, 1 Sgt, 1 Cpl, 27 Ptes and Regimental Transport temporarily left behind at BASINGSTOKE in charge of horses and mules.  Regimental transport wagons accompanied the Battalion. In addition to transport personnel the following Officers and 40 Other Ranks did not accompany the Battalion on service: 

 

Officers:- 

Capt J H MARR, pending sanction of transfer to another unit. 

Lt A G PORTER OC Details. 

 

Other Ranks:-

7 in hospital,

2 absent without leave

1 under ASC

1 Clerk to OC details

1 Batman to OC details

12 total

 

13:00. First train arrived KEYHAM.

15:00. Second train arrived KEYHAM. 

Owing to non arrival of SS CANADA, troops were ordered to rest camp at PULLPOINT DEVONPORT.  A very clean camp on good site and men made very comfortable.

Edited 22 November , 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

11th Hussars thankfully kept a better record and indeed used the term batemen. War Diary 1914-1918 (incidentally available online)

 

BATMEN

No.           Rank    Surname                        Position

3623         Pte        Emerton                         Batman - Adjt

3907         Pte        Foster                            Batman - Adjt

4575         Pte        Charlton                         Batman - 2IC's

5703         Pte        Green                             Batman - CO's

5735         Pte        Haywood                       Batman - MO

5902         Pte        Pegg                               Batman - 2IC's

5912         Pte        Mullins                           Batman - Sig Offr

6756         Pte        Lightfoot                        Batman - QM

9932         Pte        Jefferies                        Batman - MO

5678         Pte        Purser                             Batman - CO's

11497        Pte        Fitzpatrick                    Batman - Sig Offr

Edited 22 November , 2017 by Guest

[Guest]

4th Bn Middlesex Regt War Diary

 

5th Aug 1914. 1st Day of Mobilisation.  

8:00 am.  Dispatched 7 Batmen to HQ No 3 base APD.  

11:00 am. Received order to be in readiness to send bulk of Battalion off at peace strength within 24 hours of receipt of order to move.  Reported that 16 Officers and 400 Rank and File would be ready, leaving Senior Major, Capts and QMS and Storemen behind with unfits to complete mobilization.  

4:00 pm. Sent progress report to Brigade HQ.  

6:00 pm.  Separated details from men going on service and arranged for their accommodation and rations by OC details.

[Guest]

Field Service Regulations 1914:

 

 

[charlie962]

Interesting to see the official establishment per FSR 1914

 

Churchill made a speech in the House of Commons on 24th May 1916 drawing attention amongst other things to the fact that there were 200,000 officers in France with 200,000 servants and 50,000 grooms. An army in itself. There was an implication that it was not the best use of the best men.

 

It created quite a bit of reaction in the press, with some jumping on the bandwagon to claim that it meant 250,000 fighting quality men were being kept out of the front line to pamper to officers personal needs. Here are a couple of much quoted servicemens' replies, one from 'a field officer' and another from 'a Scottish NCO'.

  Thanks to FindmyPast:

              

 

With the manpower shortages in 1918 there were still references being made backto Churchill's 1916 comments.

 

Charlie

 

[David26]

Of course some soldier-servants had joined up at the same time as the officer they served since they had been in service with them before the war.  The book "For Love and Courage" (ed. Anne Nason), is a compilation of the letters of Major, later Lt Col, Edward William "Robert" Hermon.  Hermon was an officer in King Edward's Horse before the war and his soldier-servant was one of his employees, Gordon "Freddie" Buxton.  When the KEH was mobilised they went off to war together and when Hermon grew tired of life in a cavalry unit and transferred to the infantry so that he could see some action, Buxton went with him.  

 

Hermon ordered Buxton to stay behind in the attack the battalion made on 9 April 1917 near Arras, despite Buxton having asked to go, since (as Buxton relayed it to his wife) Hermon had told him that "I should be no use to him if I got wounded or anything".  Lt Col Herman was shot and killed during the attack. 

 

    David.

Edited 23 November , 2017 by David26
adding extra material

[BullerTurner]

On 22/11/2017 at 17:58, Muerrisch said:

I was on good terms with his predecessor, a gentleman.

Billy Matt?  I too had the pleasure of working alongside him, doing MACA and MACP exercises rather than drill thank the Lord.  He was indeed a gentleman and the sort of RSM/GSM that Harry Andrews used to portray! 😉

[Muerrisch]

Mott, not Matt, but, yes!

[BullerTurner]

Of course,  Mott!  His successor is a top bloke too btw but then again, you don't become the leading professional in your line by being average??

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

 

I was thinking of posting on a recent thread in Soldiers and their Units, referring to an individual who served with the 1^st East Lancashire Battalion on the Western Front throughout the four years of war, in which thread the possibility is raised that his longevity may have been attributable to his being a servant or batman, querying whether, as such, he would have been excused service in the front line. Before posting, I searched “Batman” on the Forum, and found that the subject had been the subject of interesting discussion in at least three other threads (https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/68750-what-exactly-was-a-batman/  and  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/107807-looking-for-information-on-the-role-of-a-batman/  as well as this one), and so decided to add my two penn'orth here.

 

I have been reading George Coppard's With a Machine Gun to Cambrai, and had noted his account of the role of the batman in Chapter 18, as cited by Kenf48.

 

 

On 09/11/2017 at 23:59, kenf48 said:

As always George Coppard (MGC)is a reliable witness, appointed or as he puts it relegated to the role of batman to Lt Wilkie. He relishes the fact he is out of the front line, compared to his mates in the front line the dugout he shared with his officer was 'a little bit of heaven'. To answer your specific question he states, "Mr Wilkie was a very conscientious officer and frequently visited the four guns in his charge; and I was always with him.  When on patrol, my role was that of bodyguard , guide and guarantor of the officer's bona fides."

 

Of course the dugout, where George was responsible for food etc, was not entirely a safe haven and he describes how 'minnies'  were often landing nearby, one so close his officer was slightly injured and both badly shaken they each had a tot of rum.

 

George Coppard 'With a machine gun to Cambrai'

I think it’s worth adding to Kenf48’s comments that when Coppard  finds himself “recommended for or relegated to” the position of batman (he had no idea how he came to be selected for the job), he is both surprised and gratified that Mr Wilkie regarded him as a comrade, and he reports that he “became very attached to him”. Another observation on Coppard’s experiences of being a batman is that he was astonished that when Mr Wilkie got a fever in Spring 1916 and was sent to hospital in Chocques to recover, he was entitled to have his batman with him in hospital for 8 days, even though at that time he, Coppard, was perfectly well (though he then caught the fever from being with Mr Wilkie in the hospital, and had to stay another 6 days). It certainly didn’t seem to be the case that a batman accompanied his officer to hospital when my grandfather was in hospital later in the war.

 

My grandfather without exception uses the word “servant” in his diary rather than “batman”, and I had assumed that the latter was a later term, which Coppard had adopted retrospectively in preference to “servant” when writing in the 1970s, but I see from other posts that “batman” was in use at least in some units in WW1.

 

Regarding whether servants accompanied their officers to the front line, during the four years of war my grandfather had a number of different servants, but it is clear that they were generally with him no matter how close to the front line he was. In particular, during 1916 he had a servant called Private John Edward Ashton, whom he mentions on at least three occasions as being at his side when they were right in the danger zone; on the first occasion they were actually in an advanced trench in front of the front line, though on that occasion my grandfather did refuse to allow Ashton to accompany him when reconnoitering still further forward, despite his volunteering to do so. On the second occasion Ashton rescued him from a blown-in trench. In his own words: “Ashton was a marvel, always with me at the critical moments”. Finally, Ashton was with him when they went over the top on the Somme in September 1916, and, on my grandfather being seriously  wounded, he carried him back over the full 2 miles that they had advanced, all the way to the RAP. I have good reason to be grateful to Private John Edward Ashton, as surely being given access to early treatment, rather than being left out on the field injured, waiting for the stretcher bearers, or trying to crawl back the 2 miles himself, must have greatly improved my grandfather’s chances of survival. A small part of me, a very small part, does just wonder whether he may have been quite glad of an excuse to go in the wrong direction, but I feel that is rather mean-spirited in the circumstances, and my over-riding sentiment is gratitude.

Edited 4 December , 2020 by A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy

[Muerrisch]

From memory, usually reliable, "batman" was the role title in War Establishments, whereas in most if not all peace time regular regiments the men were "officers' servants", paid extra [ a fixed wage] by the officer, and furnished with plain clothes, and doing duty in the Mess. They had to be fully trained in their war role, and could not be compelled to take the job.

Officers provided with a horse were to have two batmen ....... an historical connection to bastman I believe.

 

WIKI: 

A batman or an orderly is a soldier or airman assigned to a commissioned officer as a personal servant. Before the advent of motorized transport, an officer's batman was also in charge of the officer's "bat-horse" that carried the pack saddle with his officer's kit during a campaign.

The British English term is derived from the obsolete bat, meaning "pack saddle" (from French bât, from Old French bast, from Late Latin bastum).

 

The Brigade of Guards I believe makes further distinction: officers have servants, the [R]SM has a batman, and I dare say other senior W Os have their own. Being immaculate on parade whilst doing the myriad demanding tasks of senior battalion staff leaves little time for meticulous bull.

 

Regarding the self-confessed mean-spirited thought, a soldier in No mans' Land was hardly safe no matter in which direction he was moving.

Edited 26 November , 2020 by Muerrisch

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

13 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Regarding the self-confessed mean-spirited thought, a soldier in No mans' Land was hardly safe no matter in which direction he was moving.

Yes  in fact somewhere on his journey between the point of receiving the serious wound and reaching the RAP my grandfather received another gunshot wound to the arm, which bullet could just as easily have lodged in Ashton.

[sadbrewer]

Just to mention...I recently read an excellent book ( the name of which escapes me) around the junior officers life in WW1, what was clear was that the batman wasn't provided just to give Officers a cushy life...the amount of work that Officers were required to do gave them barely any sleeping time, never mind time to attend to more mundane matters of kit and food etc.

[FROGSMILE]

21 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

Just to mention...I recently read an excellent book ( the name of which escapes me) around the junior officers life in WW1, what was clear was that the batman wasn't provided just to give Officers a cushy life...the amount of work that Officers were required to do gave them barely any sleeping time, never mind time to attend to more mundane matters of kit and food etc.

Yes, that is the absolutely key point, and generally his activity (the officer’s) was invariably watched like a hawk by his senior officer to ensure that he was meticulously attending to all his duties.

Edited 28 November , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RegHannay]

My grandfather talks of two particular men who seemed to look after his needs during his time at the front, Well three if you count his time with 36th FA. (servant named Branch).

 

The first with the 7th ESR was Corporal Culwick, medical orderly doubling up as servant. The doctor writes very fondly of Culwick, 

"My medical orderly is now a full corporal thanks to me applying on his behalf."

"Culwick met me and showed me a tub he had procured for my bath; he is a fine fellow!"

"Culwick found four lice in my breeches."

"My stretcher bearers were splendid and worked night and day. Old Culwick worked until he nearly dropped and looked very drawn this last morning. Poor old chap; he told me he will be 53 in May.!"

(At this point my grandfather seems to keep Culwick out of harms way by sending him to look after men with slight foot problems away from the front line.)

"Have had poor old Culwick passed by the ADMS  for PB duties, he has been breaking up very fast lately and has now for all practical purposes quite lost his nerve."

 

Secondly we have "Leeds" who replaced Culwick or worked alongside him.

"My other man is Leeds, he is officially the chiropodist to the regiment. A position which has its use when on the move but quite useless as things are. He is a very nice fellow and comes in very handy as second medical orderly."

"Leeds cooks very well and looks after me very well too."

"Leeds has been so attentive and such a good and tactful companion."

"Leeds is now and in future acting as my servant, he is splendid and lays himself out to make one comfortable in every possible way."

 

When my grandfather became ill and hospitalised; Leeds accompanied him to the hospital for the first few days until he was  moved down the line to Rouen.

 

"Leeds packed my belongings and I gave him some Francs for my medical staff and told him to explain to them that if I had been somewhat irritable of late it has been down to me not feeling well."

 

It certainly looks like unofficial use of the men to act as batman/servant could have been common practice. Although reading the diary entries they became more of a friendship.

(The doctor became very close to Leeds, so much so that his home address is the only one recorded in the diaries.)

 

 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

6 hours ago, sadbrewer said:

Just to mention...I recently read an excellent book ( the name of which escapes me) around the junior officers life in WW1, what was clear was that the batman wasn't provided just to give Officers a cushy life...the amount of work that Officers were required to do gave them barely any sleeping time, never mind time to attend to more mundane matters of kit and food etc.

 

First, I wonder if you can recall the title of the "excellent book"; as well as the fact that I’m always looking for recommendations for reading matter that might appeal, I confess that there is a little additional self-interest here, as, speaking as one who has just edited/published a book (albeit in my case not for personal gain) I do feel for the person who has managed to achieve such positive feedback, but, alas, without the book itself being identified.

Moving on to the real reason for my reply, although I can be sure that the book to which you refer is not my grandfather's book, as that is so recently published that you would certainly have still remembered the title (11 November), he does in fact have quite a lot to say about the “hard work” he and his fellow officers did. I think he must, like George Coppard’s Mr Wilkie, have been quite a conscientious officer, and just a couple of examples of what he has to say on the subject are:

April 1916: We were rather short-handed, as there were only three officers in the Company, Kenderdine, Moffatt and myself, which made it very hard work. I was doing an ordinary tour of duty as well as having the usual daily reports to render, and, as a result, I was on duty practically day and night, and getting very little sleep.

25 January 1918, when he was temporary adjutant: Still busy at 2.20am – no more candles so had to stop work ...

27 January 1918: I was up at 8.00am – Church Parade. Then Colonel Holberton inspected the Battalion billets. Afterwards I had a six mile ride to sit on a FGCM  I later rode up to the Support line with Major Knyvett, about 12 miles. As soon as I got back I was sent for urgently to Brigade and got back for dinner at 8.45pm. Almost tired!

[sadbrewer]

On 27/11/2020 at 19:45, A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy said:

 

First, I wonder if you can recall the title of the "excellent book"; as well as the fact that I’m always looking for recommendations for reading matter that might appeal, I confess that there is a little additional self-interest here, as, speaking as one who has just edited/published a book (albeit in my case not for personal gain) I do feel for the person who has managed to achieve such positive feedback, but, alas, without the book itself being identified.

Moving on to the real reason for my reply, although I can be sure that the book to which you refer is not my grandfather's book, as that is so recently published that you would certainly have still remembered the title (11 November), he does in fact have quite a lot to say about the “hard work” he and his fellow officers did. I think he must, like George Coppard’s Mr Wilkie, have been quite a conscientious officer, and just a couple of examples of what he has to say on the subject are:

April 1916: We were rather short-handed, as there were only three officers in the Company, Kenderdine, Moffatt and myself, which made it very hard work. I was doing an ordinary tour of duty as well as having the usual daily reports to render, and, as a result, I was on duty practically day and night, and getting very little sleep.

25 January 1918, when he was temporary adjutant: Still busy at 2.20am – no more candles so had to stop work ...

27 January 1918: I was up at 8.00am – Church Parade. Then Colonel Holberton inspected the Battalion billets. Afterwards I had a six mile ride to sit on a FGCM  I later rode up to the Support line with Major Knyvett, about 12 miles. As soon as I got back I was sent for urgently to Brigade and got back for dinner at 8.45pm. Almost tired!

 

Six Weeks, the short and gallant life of the British Officer in the First World War. 

By John Lewis-Stempel. 

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, sadbrewer said:

 

Six Weeks, the short and gallant life of the British Officer in the First World War. 

By John Lewis-Stempel. 

 

 

     Which has been the subject of queries as to veracity on this forum by a recently departed former member, much missed-the main character, educated at Uppingham, does not exist and is fictional.  That would seem,to me at least, to significantly compromise anything else written in the book. 

[sadbrewer]

 

     Which has been the subject of queries as to veracity on this forum by a recently departed former member, much missed-the main character, educated at Uppingham, does not exist and is fictional.  That would seem,to me at least, to significantly compromise anything else written in the book. 

I'm not sure what to make of that...it's a while since I read it, but I don't remember there being a main character at all ....just interviews or quotes from dozens of different Officers....some of them well known.

[Guest]

Have a look at the one from Uppingham School

[sadbrewer]

Have a look at the one from Uppingham School

 

Just found the thread....and I'm amazed and disappointed.

   Mistakes happen...I fairly recently read a section in a book ( I'll not say which, only that it's a very respectable author...in my opinion) that mentions a chap from Sheffield that survived being shot down by Richthofen,  dying in 1982 at an address almost adjacent to a very good friend who I visited regularly in the 1970's.

   It irked me that I'd been next door but one on dozens of occasions...but never known. On researching him 35 years later, I found it was a mistake, but an honest one...the chap in Sheffield died on 17th December 1982...the actual flyer was born on December 17th, 1892....in the hurly burly of putting a book together an understandable typo error occurred....in Stempel's case it appears unforgivable...if it's fiction to illustrate a point, tell us.  As others have said it casts doubt on anything else that is written.

   On the bonus side of this I visited the CWGC to check the Lewes issue....I'm very honoured to see CWGC are using the photo of one of my relatives, albeit by marriage on the site. Captain Charles Fryatt....My Great Aunt was married to Fryatt's cousin...his Aunt is on one of our wedding photos.

[Guest]

Well, it is what it is.  Again personally, the relationship  between Lord Peter Wimsey and Bunter  shows  a sympathetic note by the author. Based, of course, on Agatha Christie's own experiences as a junior infantry officer on the Western Front...............

  What I do find intriguing,as fact, is how often a batman was not a pre-war domestic servant. That a man could volunteer in 1914 and end up as a servant does seem a little strange in our slightly more egalitarian world. 

[healdav]

Well, it is what it is.  Again personally, the relationship  between Lord Peter Wimsey and Bunter  shows  a sympathetic note by the author. Based, of course, on Agatha Christie's own experiences as a junior infantry officer on the Western Front...............

  What I do find intriguing,as fact, is how often a batman was not a pre-war domestic servant. That a man could volunteer in 1914 and end up as a servant does seem a little strange in our slightly more egalitarian world. 

The Lord Peter Wimsey books were written by Dorothy Sayers, not Agatha Christie (i doubt that Poirot could have coped with the mud on the main roads let alone the trenches). And, were there women officers in the trenches?

 

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, healdav said:

The Lord Peter Wimsey books were written by Dorothy Sayers, not Agatha Christie (i doubt that Poirot could have coped with the mud on the main roads let alone the trenches). And, were there women officers in the trenches?

 

 

    Deliberate mistake-  Just to show that it is worth checking whether "factual"  statements are that. Well done,H.!!     And, yes, the front-line career of Dorothy Sayers at Gallipoli  may be the subject of some scrutiny by the fact-checkers.......  

     It is a sensible subject for debate- the relationship between an officer and his batman.  Rather as, on another thread, about Anthony Eden and his MC, Eden's relationship with his platoon sergeant. A notion of the Great War British Army without a hierarchical structure would be pretty much unimaginable. But any hierarchical structure has it's stress points and it's back channels- the times when the structure was compromised by design or chance eg the various references in the literature to junior officers playing football with their men. And in this, the batman played a particular role- neither fish nor fowl- inhabiting a world of officers yet not quite just a.n.other OR. 

[A Lancashire Fusilier by Proxy]

On 29/11/2020 at 23:37, sadbrewer said:

Six Weeks, the short and gallant life of the British Officer in the First World War. 

By John Lewis-Stempel. 

Thank you so much, Sadbrewer, for responding to my invitation to name the book. I think neither of us foresaw what a can of worms it would open! And, of course, now that I have read the thread which exposes the gallant 2nd Lieutenant Lewes as a fictional shadow puppet, I am completely put off investing in the book. How odd to write a book about a historical subject in such a way - all that would have been required at least to legitimise it would have been to have declared upfront in the Prologue that the account of Mr Lewes' death was fictional, but regarded by the author as typical based on his reading of genuine diary accounts (or whatever his sources were) and then to go on to make it absolutely clear how much of the rest of the book was based on fact, and how much was fiction.

Guest, as I think you have touched on in your more recent post, it is the term "servant" that causes surprise to our modern sensibilities, not that the role existed, particularly in a hierarchical organisation such as the army. Also, I doubt whether the servant or batman would much have relished the report-writing etc. that officers like my grandfather were filling their time with, which meant they didn't have time for more domestic duties. The role of batman or servant may well have actually been welcomed by many of those selected for it, given than it came with certain privileges, exemptions and additional pay. I wonder, however, whether the position was entirely voluntary. What would have happened if a soldier was invited to accept the role, but declined?