Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Sound profiles of Lebel M1886 French rifles vs Mauser Gewehr 98


Guest

Recommended Posts

Greetings from New Zealand. 

May I please ask you for some practical information on the reality of the German advances into Belgium  in August 1914?

We know that the Belgian government had handed out 100000 rifles to the civilian population in the first few days of the German advance to facilitate the defense of Belgium.  

1. Anyone know which type these rifles were? 

From my research I would find it most likely that we are talking about Lebel M1886 rifles which had previously anyhow been sold on the civilian market. 

 

Later war propaganda did an excellent job in convincing everyone who cared to listen that franc-tireurs were a non-entity and that apart from a handful of over-excited Belgians no civilian ever shot at the German troops.  In view of the 100000 rifles given to Belgian civilians I can somehow not believe that.

2. Both rifle designs fire 8 mm bullets from a similar cartridge, with the bullets being of similar design.  I have fired Mausers but I have not had the privilege of firing a Lebel.  Is anyone aware of differences in the sound picture of these rifles.  In other words - could an infantry soldier moving through Aarschott distinguish rifle designs by their sound.  Or did both French and German rifle shots sound too similar to distinguish them?

 

Your time and effort in replying is much appreciated!

Regards Stephan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You could try YouTube there are some vids of the lebel 1886 been fired

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have fired both rifles (almost always with ear protection however) and almost always in open countryside/rifle ranges not in a built up area where echoes and flat hard surfaces (roads and buildings) make things even more complicated.

I would be skeptical of anyone who claimed to be able to reliably distinguish between the reports of Lebels and Mausers in this context, particularly under combat conditions.

 

One might be able to distinguish a Mauser/Lebel/Enfield round from a Modern 7.62 or 5.56mm round (the latter having a much flatter "crack!" sound as opposed to the "boom!" of the earlier rounds - but even then,  if the fire were directed towards me I suspect I would perhaps fail to make the distinction.)

Assuming your soldier had also recently fired his rifle (or been in the vicinity of fire, including perhaps artillery) without the benefit of ear protection,  then some of the ability to distinguish the nuances of the report might also have been lost I would think.

 

I am interested in the idea that the Belgian Govt would have distributed French rifles (Lebels) - of a different calibre to their own Mausers which were 7.65mm  and this is the first I have heard of this. I am also surprised given the shortage of the Lebels in France.... - do you have a source I might follow up on?

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And you are indeed right. 

https://www.militaryfactory.com/smallarms/detail.asp?smallarms_id=655

I have seen the Lebel rifle been mentioned in a report from the time but for the sake of it can now not remember in which dairy I have read it. 

Your arguments ring true.  The Belgian government would have only had easy access to what they normally were using (see below):

 

One hour after the German invasion began, Albert informed parliament that Belgium would resist, to defend its territory, and that he would be military commander in chief. Neither French nor British forces were deployed in time to help the Belgians. Belgian civilians assisted the military effort by blowing up railroads and tunnels. They destroyed bridges over the Meuse River before the Germans arrived and razed farms and homes near Liège to provide clear fields for defensive fire. Private cars were used in raids against the Germans, and the Minerva factory undertook the production of armored cars. Belgians also utilized wireless radios to spy on advancing troops, and guerrillas conducted raids against the invaders.

Spencer C. Tucker. The European Powers in the First World War: An Encyclopedia (Garland Reference Library of the Humanities) (p. 117). Taylor and Francis. Kindle Edition.

 

And i agree with your comments on rifle fire in the urban environment. 

Thanks for the brainstorming!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

Without ever having fired a Lebel gun but having fired different versions of 8-mm-Mauser ammo (different bullet weights, different loads) out of different rifles (carbines, long barreled guns) I can state that different sound patterns are to be heard by the shooter behind the gun. I never stood in front of a gun being fired towards my direction but there are battle-hardened soldiers who mentioned that the riflefire sound differs if being heard from opposite positions. It is said that bigger calibers make a more dump "bang" but myself being exposed to the sound being made by a highly powdered .375 H&H I hear a high-frequency "bang" that is of much higher intensity than the one of 8x57 standard laboration, of course. - Compared to the sound blast of my high power 8x68 S, the 8x57 "bang" is much less noisier and more dump.

So I doubt that the sound of 8x57 and of 8-mm-Lebel, both being almost identical in load and bullet dimensions, can be properly distinguished from each other.

Regards

Henry

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 years later...
On 29/10/2017 at 22:26, Guest said:

We know that the Belgian government had handed out 100000 rifles to the civilian population in the first few days of the German advance to facilitate the defense of Belgium.  

according to whom ? The Belgian Army even had problems supplying every soldier with a Mauser 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only saw this topic now. I doubt indeed that Belgium would have been able to acquire that many French rifles and ammunition and distribute them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having served in Vietnam as a marine I can tell you that most veterans did not argue with each other over what caliber weapon was being fired at them. 

The main issue at that time was to seek cover and return fire.

I doubt if a WW1 soldier was any different.

Gene

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

I once found a WW1 Lebel rifle at a former English camp behind the front.

Were these also used by the English because I don't know how it ended up there otherwise.

Arne

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...