Could some one id this relic revolver from Vimmy

[arantxa]

I don't think its a mark 1

[Radlad]

Don't think it is American ( Hopkins & Allen , Harrington and Richardson etc) due to it's grip shape and general layout. It is probably of Spanish or Belgian origin but determining exactly where from will probably be impossible.

 

Approximately what calibre is it and are there any cartridges in the chamber?

[arantxa]

Hi

no bullets im afraid..i thought at first it may be a mk1 with birds grip (is that what they call it) but looking at pictures the trigger guard at back comes down vertical I thought at first a webly mk1 as short barrel..do you think they made variations..it came out of a tunnel at Vimmy

[MikB]

The square-backed trigger guard and the rather clumsy protruding screws look more a Belgian characteristic than Spanish , although the design clearly echoes the established US makers. The cylinder size makes me think it's a .38 (probably .38 S&W) calibre rather than a .32.

 

I think if there were any rounds in it, we'd see the rims in the pic.

 

There's a rather similar piece third one down here:-

http://www.itsc.org.uk/lead shaver.htm

 

...though it's in rather better nick...

[arantxa]

Hi

I would say that was a 100 percent match..im not much of a revolver chap..i have the usual  luger..webleys etc in a ww1 collection

would the above be ww1 and did  the Belgium's make them for the forces..as I said it came from Vimmy Ridge

 

 Thanks for all your help 

[MikB]

Almost certain to be WW1, given where it was found.

 

Lots of cheap pistols - many of them copies of widely varying quality - found their way into soldiers' pockets, because the 'official' pistol makers of all the belligerents found it impossible to keep up with demand. Many gunmakers in Spain and Belgium, named and anonymous, churned out weapons to meet the ready market. Small .32s were especially popular.

 

It was most likely carried by a British or Canadian soldier. German regulation pistol supply was better, and soldiers less likely to carry unofficial weapons.

[arantxa]

Thank you....you have been a great help and I appreciate your knowledge 

[Stoppage Drill]

Looks like an 1880 Smith and Wesson .38 double action, though knock-off  copies were churned out by dozens of small workshops around Liège.

Any chance of a left side pic please ?

[MikB]

It's interesting that it's survived in considerably better condition than many such finds - well-drained ground, good quality alloy steel, or both?

 

I'm guessing that the original civilian pistol didn't have the lanyard ring, so the soldier may have got a unit armourer to add it.  Let's hope it didn't cost him that he presumably didn't have any ammunition for it at the time he lost it.

[MikB]

4 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Looks like an 1880 Smith and Wesson .38 double action, though knock-off  copies were churned out by dozens of small workshops around Liège.

Any chance of a left side pic please ?

 

I'd think it's a simplified copy - the cylinder bolt recesses only lock against over rotation, not back rotation - it'll rely on the pawl for that.

[Beechhill]

1 hour ago, MikB said:

It's interesting that it's survived in considerably better condition than many such finds - well-drained ground, good quality alloy steel, or both?

 

I'm guessing that the original civilian pistol didn't have the lanyard ring, so the soldier may have got a unit armourer to add it.  Let's hope it didn't cost him that he presumably didn't have any ammunition for it at the time he lost it.

It does seem strange for a weapon in (what I assume to be) the front line to be unloaded. 

Was the owner "caught" just as he had ejected the spent cartridges, or? 

[arantxa]

Will take a photo of the other side it doesn't open up its rusted but pretty sure no bullets in it 

[Stoppage Drill]

Five-shot ?

[MikB]

29 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Five-shot ?

Looks like it has to be. The cylinder flute at the top is not far from where it'd be if the top chamber were in firing position, but the side flute is well below the centreline - it would be level with it if it were a six-shot cylinder.

Edited 30 October , 2017 by MikB

[trenchtrotter]

If not deactivated will still be considered section 1 firearm.

[MikB]

1 hour ago, trenchtrotter said:

If not deactivated will still be considered section 1 firearm.

 

Section 5 I'd've thought? .38 S&W's not an obsolete calibre AFAIK, and it fits the definition of a 'small firearm'.

 

The fact that anyone who could make that thing work again could probably machine a better one from scratch would likely make no difference. Ludicrous. 

Edited 30 October , 2017 by MikB

[mark holden]

6 hours ago, trenchtrotter said:

If not deactivated will still be considered section 1 firearm.

TT,

 

This pistol was sold at Ryedale Auctioneers yesterday. The police 'raided' the Auction House two weeks ago when the sale was originally due to take place because of a tip off from a member of the public that they were selling live ordnance . All relic ordnance was inspected by the Catterick ATO and cleared as safe/inert. N YORKS Police impounded some relic weapons which then went on sale yesterday requiring RFD from purchaser. (One S&W .455 relic was obviously confiscated as it did not re-appear). This pistol was not in that category so N Yorks FAO must have  deemed it to be obsolete calibre. Clearly the N Yorks Police applied the law but how anyone could reactivate rusted shut bits of metal (in most cases only parts of rifles rather than compete weapons) is beyond me.

 

 

 

regards

 

Mark 

[Stoppage Drill]

Home Office advice has long been that a firearm which is rendered permanently inoperable by virtue of condition, e.g. severe corrosion or other major damage can be treated as being "deactivated."

Edited 30 October , 2017 by Stoppage Drill

[MikB]

1 hour ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Home Office advice has long been that a firearm which is rendered permanently inoperable by virtue of condition, e.g. severe corrosion or other major damage can be treated as being "deactivated."

 

Ah, so there is some common sense around. But do police require a piece of paper with some writing on it, from (eg.) a proof house, to declare its permanently inoperable condition?

[Khaki]

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 12:54, MikB said:

It's interesting that it's survived in considerably better condition than many such finds - well-drained ground, good quality alloy steel, or both?

 

 

Here is a similar revolver made by Harrington & Richardson, the general top break design was copied widely usually in 32 or 38 caliber and they were commonly finished in 'nickel'

I wonder if its condition was due to the hard protective nickel? The lanyard ring I think was an afterthought.

khaki

[MikB]

39 minutes ago, Khaki said:

Here is a similar revolver made by Harrington & Richardson, the general top break design was copied widely usually in 32 or 38 caliber and they were commonly finished in 'nickel'

I wonder if its condition was due to the hard protective nickel? The lanyard ring I think was an afterthought.

khaki

 

 

It might be, but your pic is of a nicely plated H&R, not an anonymous copy! Thickness, adhesion and other quality aspects of plating could vary as much as any other characteristic in these, and the OP's example might well be one of the better ones.

 

But conditions could probably defeat any quality of plating - I saw nickel plated Iver Johnsons and Webleys that looked worse than your H&R back in the 60s and 70s...

Edited 31 October , 2017 by MikB

[Khaki]

Of course we only know two things, one is that of an archaic design and two that it came out of a tunnel.  When it was put there, when it was found and for what reason it was left there are the unknown factors that would impact on its condition.

These types of antique revolvers are still very common here as they were produced in enormous numbers between about 1880 and as late as the 1930's I believe. They turn up in gun stores usually for around $50.

I posted the image to give members a comparative example of what one would look like when it was in a functional state. The use of a lanyard ring whether done between 1914/18 perplexes me as all of these revolvers are essentially civilian 'pocket' revolvers and were not designed as a 'holster weapon'. The top breaks were usually of a superior quality to the solid frames.  Perhaps this revolver was a theatrical example that was hidden from the occupiers during WW2. Who knows??

khaki

[MikB]

I think the lanyard ring more than anything else shows this was a soldier's gun. Even if not carried in a holster, a wrist lanyard (for example) is a logical add-on to reduce risk of loss in a scramble over No Man's Land, possibly in the dark.

 

I didn't know it was found in a tunnel. If it was part of the mining/countermining underground war that went on in several places in WW1, sudden fights resulting from deliberate raids or unexpected breakins were something to be prepared for, and carrying backup guns would be common, even if officially frowned on.

[Radlad]

Distinct possibility. It's Belgian, made for the German war effort whilst Belgium was occupied ( greater part of the war?) and that accounts for the lanyard ring.. Used by the German forces until captured at Vimy ridge.. Picked up as a souvenir and brought to the Uk ( that accounts for the empty chamber)  badly stored in a damp cellar or otherwise  and surfaced at the sale after a house clearance

 

Very common situation in the 1960's and 70's. Not so much now.

 

The Germans were just as strapped for arms as we were and Belgian production was a real help.

[arantxa]

As  said  other pics and no it doesn't need a de activate as its already been checked over

id like to take the opportunity to thank MikB  who seems to be the most knowledgeable on this subject on this forum for his time