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Phill Jones

Beavan Carlton-Smith RAF

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Phill Jones

I have recently , seen a Dead Mans Penny  to  the above Man , 

 

Research shows me that this man , Joined the RAF , on 2/5/18 as 175113 Beavan Carlton - Smith , this man was later commissioned as a Temp 2nd Lt (Obs /Off ) 23/8/18 .

 

He died as a result of injuries received in a flying accident 6/2/19 while serving with 100 Sqd , He and Lt LS Hewitt were flying  a German Gotha 99 No 527  when the aircraft crashed out of control on take off from Cologne , and both were killed .

 

My Question is this , if this man was awarded the Penny then would he have been granted War Medals , His service record shows the following , Service considered for the grant of war medals ?

 

i can find no MIC for this RAF officer .

I have seen variations on the spelling of Carltons name so i am quoting from the RAF service record , although the CWGC has Beavan Carleton-Smith . hope some one may have something to add thank you Phill Jones 

Edited by Phill Jones
typo

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josquin

Phill,

 

Per Ardua stated several years ago on the Forum that the Ministry of Defence has not released the MICs for Great War airmen

who served exclusively with the RFC/RAF.  The MICs that are available are for airmen with prior regiments or Special Reserve

postings.  The RAF service record lists him, incorrectly, as "Carlton-Smith," but his mother did not simply things by listing

him on CWGC as "Beavan Carleton-Smith," and herself as "Adelaide Carleton-Smith" & his late father as "Carleton

McDougall-Smith."  In contrast, his birth registry lists Carleton Bevan Smith (no hyphen), birth registered at Chorlton,

Lancs. in 4th Quarter of 1899.  Similarly, the 1911 Census lists Carleton Bevan Smith, born at Dudsbury, Lancs., as residing

at Stockport, Cheshire, with parents Carleton McDougall Smith & Adelaide Smith and a sister, Dorothy Carleton Smith--

no hyphens for any of them.  His casualty card at the RAF Museum, Hendon, lists him as B. Carleton-Smith, observer, 100

Squadron, flying with Lt. L.S. Hewitt, pilot when both were killed in the accident on 6 February 1919--but the casualty card

lists France as the location of the accident rather than Cologne, Germany.

Regards,

Josquin

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PRC

Phil,

 

While I have seen MiC's for RFC men who went into the RAF on its creation, they are not available as far as I'm aware for RAF men only. So if you have his service records, which units did he serve with up to the 11th November 1918 and where was he stationed. If he didn't see service outside the UK then you are starting to look at him not qualifying for any service medals.

 

I don't know what the status is of those who served with home defence units who actually saw combat or those who flew ferry flights of aircraft over, though I suspect the latter then usually stayed in theatre. I'm not aware of any bombing raids by the RAF being launched from the UK, (although the RNAS were active from bases like Lowestoft prior to the merger, and this probably continued). So there could be some possible scenario's where he stayed in the UK and qualified for service medals - its really going to come down to the specifics of his service history.

 

The note on his records is therefore probably just an administrative one to show that he had been considered and the absence of any medals being noted on his records meant he didn't qualify, but if you post details of his service history it might be possible to go through and try and work out the likelihood of whether he did or didn't, :-)

 

Regards,

Peter

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Phill Jones

Thank you all for replying to my thread , Ray the link you sent was most interesting , Thank you . Josquin thank you also can i ask if the Casualty cards are available on line or do you have to visit the RAF Museum to obtain copies ???. 

 

Peter i attach the service file , and i would welcome your thoughts , thank you .

 Phill Jones 

Beavan C-Smith 1.pdf

GBM-AIR76-468-0-0426.jpg

GBM-AIR76-468-0-0428.jpg

GBM-AIR76-469-0-0325.jpg

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hmsk212

Hi

 

He qualified for the War & Victory medals as he served with the BEF from 21st September 1918.

 

Steve

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PRC
40 minutes ago, hmsk212 said:

 

He qualified for the War & Victory medals as he served with the BEF from 21st September 1918.

 

Only if he actually served in a Theatre of War.  I'm reading that first card that he joined 199 NTS on that day. That gives him less than 8 weeks to complete his conversion to night flying and get across to France.199 Night Training Squadron may well have been attached to the British Expeditionary Force but the references to it that I've come across have it stationed in the UK. It seems to have originally been 199 Squadron, based at East Retford - although more than happy for someone with expertise in this area to put me right and apologies if I'm mis-reading it.

 

See

 

The Ministry of Defence site adds:-

No. 199 Squadron was formed on 1 June 1917 at Rochford from No.99 Depot Squadron as a training unit for pilots intended for service with the night bomber squadrons in France. Using F.E.2bs, it retained this task till the end of the war, moving to Harpswell in Lincolnshire in June 1918, where it disbanded in June 1919.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/history/199squadron.cfm

 

49 minutes ago, Phill Jones said:

 

Peter i attach the service file , and i would welcome your thoughts , thank you .

 Phill Jones 

 

 

Phill,

 

How convinced are you they all belong to the same person, - there seems to be some real inconsistencies between each page and difficult to reconcile particularly the last two pages to the first and the pdf.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Phill Jones

Peter , 

 

Fair question , i have the census record that shows both him and his mum which tie up, his Airman's record also shows his mothers name and the fact that he was later commissioned , his mother was local to me his later officer records also shows the No of 17513 , OK a One is missing ??  i am fairly certain it is the same man ?but i do agree there are many question marks 

 

Phill

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RaySearching

Link to Casualty Card from the Vault

 

The National Archives. have this to say regarding R.A.F medal entitlements

6. Medals 1914-1922

6.1 Campaign medals

 

If an individual in the RAF qualified for medal(s) after 1 April 1918, the only place you will find details about his medal entitlement will be on his service record.

 

Ray

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PRC
3 hours ago, Phill Jones said:

 

GBM-AIR76-469-0-0325.jpg

Phil,

 

This one in particular I don't think belongs. Its noted he was appointed Temporary 2nd Lieutenant effective 15th February 1919. While the fact that he was dead by this point can be discounted, due to bureaucratic delay and \or printers deadlines, the fact that Beavan\Bevan was already a Temporary 2nd Lieutenant cannot. The authority for this entry is quoted as page 6522 of the London Gazette dated 27th May 1919, and at the top of the page we have a service number 172532 listed.

 

The entry for 172532 on the London Gazette is for a D. Smith, no middle initials. (Although could be an error in the compilation of the list, but I would expect to find a correcting entry in a later Gazette and so far cannot).

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31361/page/6522/data.pdf

 

The page itself is just a long list of names, but going back to page 6521, the section is headed - The undermentioned Overseas Cadets are granted temp. comms. as 2nd Lts. 15th February 1919.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31361/page/6521/data.pdf

 

Which ties in with the other thing I was suspecting - RAF Can refers to RAF Canada, of which he was struck off strength on the 6th October 1918, presumably to take this RAF commission and the note about embarked for overseas refers to leaving Canada, not leaving the UK for France. Of course I could need my eyes tested !

 

If that interpretation is correct then would certainly appear to be a completely different individual,

 

regards,

Peter

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Phill Jones

Peter ,

 

Thank you , i take your point and agree with your thoughts on this , i am beginning to wonder about the sheet covering 182041 also ??? anyway i attach what i assume is his dead mans Penny 

 

thank you very much  

Dead Mans Penny.jpg

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RaySearching

The service number  182041 belongs to Bertram Charles Smith  

 

The service number  172532 belongs to Dean Melville Campbell Smith

 

So the service records  2 + 3 can be discounted

 

 

Ray

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Phill Jones

Ray , Thank you , can i ask how you found this info , i assume the London Gazette ?  

 

Phill

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RaySearching
57 minutes ago, Phill Jones said:

can i ask how you found this info , i assume the London Gazette ? 

 

I have a trusty assistant who does look ups

 

22488562667_80a9a5c35f_o.gif

 

Although he hasn’t quite attained IPTs proficiency yet

 

Entering Smith and the service number in ancestry RAF officer service records bring up the results in post  12

Although the actual records are in fold 3

 

Here are a couple more snippets

 

Aeronautics Vol 16 (King Sell & Olding 1919

Page 295

59ece20037ded_smith2.JPG.1894262e9a63b6924dc9008accb3f6b0.JPG

 

Flight Global 1919

smith.JPG.9b8cef3cdf12f128a0e865942f23f005.JPG

 

I think PRC (Peter) reasoning regarding any medal entitlement is spot on  (Post  7)

 

Transferred to 199 Night Training Squadron on the 21st September 1918

The armistice took place on the 11th November 1918 did Beavan have time to be trained and enter France before an Armistice was called ?  (the time scale seems a bit tight)

 

 

Ray

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Phill Jones

Ray , I agree , with your comments and thank you i have gained much knowledge from this 

 

Rgs Phill

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hmsk212
19 hours ago, PRC said:

 

Only if he actually served in a Theatre of War.  I'm reading that first card that he joined 199 NTS on that day. That gives him less than 8 weeks to complete his conversion to night flying and get across to France.199 Night Training Squadron may well have been attached to the British Expeditionary Force but the references to it that I've come across have it stationed in the UK. It seems to have originally been 199 Squadron, based at East Retford - although more than happy for someone with expertise in this area to put me right and apologies if I'm mis-reading it.

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Hi,

 

If you read the headings on his service sheet in conjunction with his postings you will see :-

 

Unit from which  -- 199 NTS,  Unit to which --- BEF,  Date of effect --- 21.9.18

 

He therefore left 199 NTS rather joined 199 NTS on 21st September 1918

 

Steve

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PRC

Steve,

 

One possible interpretation, but then you have 199 NTS written above BEF which has nothing else on the same line - no date, no unit from, and no outgoing authority.

Whats written on the line above against the entry for joining 48th Wing on the 24th August 1918 may also be relevant - unfortunately even on maximum resolution I can't make it out - "for dispersal \ disposal?"

 

He could have been assigned to a pool of pilots run by the BEF rather than posted to a specific squadron - something I've seen in the second world war where a pilot could be assigned to ferry a particular general round, but not something I've come across in the Great War. Hence why I'm tending to think this reflects an administrative change in the status of 199 NTS rather than a posting for Beavan. The absence of medals tends to sway the argument more in that direction but its still not a clincher and you may be right. Certainly there was something in his records that caused the question of his entitlement to be considered. For now I don't think there is a "smoking gun" either way, just a balance of probabilities.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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hmsk212

Hi

 

When he joined 48 Wing on 28th August it was for Disposal. 199 NTS was part of 48 Wing and 6 Bde. So my interpretation is that he was posted to 48 Wing on 28th August and was assigned to 199 NTS as part of this posting. In September he left the 199 NTS and proceeded overseas to join the BEF.

 

In all of the years that I have studied WW1 RAF Officers Records whenever I have seen the  stamped  " Service Considered For the Grant of War Medals " the Officers with this in their records have been granted Medals. I have yet to come across a Record with this stamp where Medals weren't issued.

 

If you look at the Air76 Records of the RAF VC winners such as William George Barker and Andrew Wetherby Beauchamp-Proctor you will see that they list the VC MC DSO DFC and even MiDs and Foreign Awards but they do not show Stars, War or Victory Medals they just have the stamp " Service Considered For the Grant of War Medals "

 

Steve

 

Edited by hmsk212

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PRC
4 hours ago, hmsk212 said:

Hi

 

When he joined 48 Wing on 28th August it was for Disposal. 199 NTS was part of 48 Wing and 6 Bde. So my interpretation is that he was posted to 48 Wing on 28th August and was assigned to 199 NTS as part of this posting. In September he left the 199 NTS and proceeded overseas to join the BEF.

 

In all of the years that I have studied WW1 RAF Officers Records whenever I have seen the  stamped  " Service Considered For the Grant of War Medals " the Officers with this in their records have been granted Medals. I have yet to come across a Record with this stamp where Medals weren't issued.

 

If you look at the Air76 Records of the RAF VC winners such as William George Barker and Andrew Wetherby Beauchamp-Proctor you will see that they list the VC MC DSO DFC and even MiDs and Foreign Awards but they do not show Stars, War or Victory Medals they just have the stamp " Service Considered For the Grant of War Medals "

 

Steve

 

 

Fair dues - balance of probabilities definitely swings in favour of your interpretation.  I was going to ask you where you'd expect to see the medals recorded on the Service Record - as Ray has pointed out from the National Archive site, that's the only place they will be and Phil has attached a copy of Beavans. I even dug around to find a couple that I've had cause to download to see if I could work out if there was a bit missing from what Phil has attached.

 

However your edit has made it clear - looks like the "consideration" and the "grant" were simultaneous, i.e. the presence of the stamp means there is no possibility that medals weren't awarded. Maybe they could have worded that in a more straightforward way :-)

 

One last thought - would the Squadron diary possibly record the arrival of new officers. The working assumption would be that he went straight to 100 Squadron so work forward from the 21.9.1918 or back from his date of death.

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Loader

I agree with Steve. I have not seen many such records but all I have seen with that stamp on them had medals with them so I am sure it really means medals earned/issued to the man involved.

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Patricia Lewis

Hello.  It was a pleasant surprise to see this write-up on my grandmother's first cousin Carleton Bevan Smith.  Yes, Beavan Carleton-Smith and Carleton Bevan Smith are one and the same.  He was the son of Carleton MacDougal Smith and Adelaide Hamer.  I'm not sure why the surname was changed to Carleton-Smith by Adelaide and Carleton Jr, that always confused me.  Carleton is also the surname of Carleton Sr's great grandmother Elizabeth Carleton who married the Rev. Edward Smith.  MacDougall is Carleton Sr's mother's maiden name, Katherine Robertson MacDougall, who married Thomas Smith. The middle name Bevan is Adelaide Hamer's (aka Hamar) mother's maiden name.  Her parents were Richard Hamer and Mary Bevan. Another record of proof they are the same person is a family history book on the descendents of John HAMAR and Martha Whiston.  In it there are transcribed letters mentioning my greatx2 grandmother Katherine Robertson MacDougall (who had a previous married to a James Hamer - cousin to Adelaide) and mentioning the loss of her son Carleton Bevan from a plane accident during WW1.  The Smith line ended with Carleton and his two sisters Kathleen StClair Smith and Dorothy Carleton Smith, none of them had any issue. 

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Phill Jones

Hello Patricia, 

 

Great to get your message , and thank you for the Above , I work in our local museum (Radnorshire Museum ) in Llandrindod Wells , we are currently staging an exhibition called Radnorshire Remembers , which is running until the end of January . Carleton features in this Exhibition , not sure where you are based but i wanted to let you know of the Exhibition , please PM me and i can pass over any information i have on Carleton . Hope to hear from you 

 

Kindest regards Phillip 

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