Photo Officers 3rd Middlesex Regiment

[mrfrank]

Just obtained this original framed group photograph of the officers of the 3rd Middlesex taken at Cawnpore. It dates to 1913-1914 and I'm trying to identify the individual officers. I'm posting in the hope that a forum member may have seen this particular photograph before or have access to a named version of this image. I believe the battalion moved to Cawnpore in early 1913? The image may have been taken on their departure for England in Sept 1914. 

Seated centre is Lt Col EWR Stephenson with to his left (as we look at the photo) Maj GH Neale. I'm assuming that it's the adjutant, Capt HE Large to his right. All three were killed in 1915. Any assistance much appreciated. 

[mrfrank]

Here's hopefully a slightly clearer image now I've taken it out from under the glass/grime.......

Edited 15 October , 2017 by mrfrank

[mrfrank]

With the help of a fellow forum member on another thread I managed to finally identify three officers on this photo and after several further hours trawling the internet/books I have managed to identify a number more. Thought I'd just list those I now know are featured in this image (that dates to circa March 1913) for future searches/look-ups, so here goes:

 

Captain Herbert Philip Hilton

Major Philip Martin Large

Major George Henry Neale

Lt Col Ernest William Rokeby Stephenson

Capt Herbert Edward Large

Major Samuel Howard Hingley

Major Francis Garden Poole

Lt Neville Hadley Bernard Lyon

Lt James Dixon

Hon Capt William Fulcher

Lt Michael Claud Scarborough 

2nd Lt Lanceray Arthur Newnham

2nd Lt Rodney Gransmore

 

9 remain unidentified for now with some tentative idents being:

Lt GMJ Sichel

Lt NYL Welman

Capt Cyril Kitchin

Edited 3 May , 2021 by mrfrank

[Matt Wood]

I believe that last on the right in the middle row is my Great Grandfather Lanceray Newnham ? 

[mrfrank]

Hello Matt, 

                  Just gone back to my notes that I made at the time regarding this photo. I remember only finding the one much later image for Lanceray Newnham (your avatar) and I thought he was possibly 2nd from left top row or last on the right middle row. Thanks for confirming which it is for me. Brave man your Great Grandfather.

[Matt Wood]

Thanks. I have  more photos that may help your research. Here is another one for now

 

[LValpy]

Hello, I came across this site while researching my Great Grandfather.  In the front row of the photo, third from the left is my Great Grandfather George Henry Neale, who indeed died in 1915.  I have quite a bit of information on him if it is of interest to anyone.  What a wonderful photo to come across, I am so glad that you posted it, thank you! 

[Matt Wood]

1 minute ago, LValpy said:

Hello, I came across this site while researching my Great Grandfather.  In the front row of the photo, third from the left is my Great Grandfather George Henry Neale, who indeed died in 1915.  I have quite a bit of information on him if it is of interest to anyone.  What a wonderful photo to come across, I am so glad that you posted it, thank you! 

I think I have several other photos of your Great Grandfather too. I believe a lot are in sporting photos along with my Great Grandfather, Lanceray Newnham. I'll dig them out, digitalise them and post them here if you like?

 

[LValpy]

Hi! That would be wonderful, thank you so much.  I would would love to see them.  I am fascinated by this man.  He died when my grandmother was only 4.  I have a bracelet that he gave to my grandmother which he bought in India shortly before he died.  I am interested to know about the connection between my Great Grandfather and yours?  Were they friends do you think?  At school together?  Thank you so much for responding.

[Matt Wood]

On 03/05/2021 at 12:52, LValpy said:

Hi! That would be wonderful, thank you so much.  I would would love to see them.  I am fascinated by this man.  He died when my grandmother was only 4.  I have a bracelet that he gave to my grandmother which he bought in India shortly before he died.  I am interested to know about the connection between my Great Grandfather and yours?  Were they friends do you think?  At school together?  Thank you so much for responding.

 

 

 

 

[LValpy]

Oh my goodness thank you!  It is incredibly powerful to see these photographs.  I have heard about this man my entire life.  He looks just like my grandmother who I was very close to.  She ended up living in Jamaica (via India, England, Ireland, Quebec, then Jamaica...), where she died in Mandeville.  Seeing pictures of her father is so moving.  Thank you so much for sending me these photographs.  My whole family will be thrilled.

[mrfrank]

Thanks for posting the images of those original battalion group photographs Matt. 
From the 1912 Cricket XI, I think I’ve managed to identify another officer. Namely 2nd Lt Rodney Gransmore who is standing to the far left of the rear row in my image. He was killed on 28th May 1915 with the 3rd battalion and is commemorated on the Loos Memorial. If you happen to have any further group images from that period in India, I’d be grateful if you could add them to the thread as I’m sure they’d be of interest.
Thanks again. 
Mike

[nemesis-4u]

PM sent Matt, look forward to hearing from you

[PRC]

On 23/03/2020 at 23:04, mrfrank said:

With the help of a fellow forum member on another thread I managed to finally identify three officers on this photo and after several further hours trawling the internet/books I have managed to identify a number more. Thought I'd just list those I now know are featured in this image (that dates to circa March 1913) for future searches/look-ups, so here goes:

 

Captain Herbert Philip Hilton

Major Philip Martin Large

Major George Henry Neale

Lt Col Ernest William Rokeby Stephenson

Capt Herbert Edward Large

Major Samuel Howard Hingley

Major Francis Garden Poole

Lt Neville Hadley Bernard Lyon

Lt James Dixon

Hon Capt William Fulcher

Lt Michael Claud Scarborough 

2nd Lt Lanceray Arthur Newnham

2nd Lt Rodney Gransmore

 

9 remain unidentified for now with some tentative idents being:

Lt GMJ Sichel

Lt NYL Welman

Capt Cyril Kitchin

Hi @mrfrank

You didn’t say whether you were able to establish all the names of those potentially present, so if it’s any help here is the officer establishment of the 3rd Battalion at the start of 1913 according to that years Harts’ Annual Army List. The 3rd Battalion is shown at Lebong but moving to Cawnpore.
https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100724690

I’ve added in any amendments from the 1914 List, which shows the 3rd Battalion starting the year at Cawnpore. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/100748287

Lieutenant Colonel.

Ernest William Rokeby Stephenson.

Majors.

George Henry Neale
Samuel H. Hingley (Captain West India Regiment). You believe him to be present.
Philip M. Large.

Captains.

William Harold Collier Davy (Captain 6th Battalion).
Herbert Philip Hilton
William Alfred Odling, Adjutant from 26th July 1911.(Has this been left in error?)
Cedric Rupert Hay (1914 edition shows him as Captain 6th Battalion)
Herbert Edward Large. Adjutant from 28th November 1911
Cyril Kitchin

Lieutenants.

Michael Claud Scarborough (1914 edition has him promoted to Captain with seniority from the 21st February 1913).
Cecil Falconar Tulloch, 6th Battalion.
James Dixon (1914 edition has him with the 2nd Battalion).
Harold Antrobus Cartwright (1914 edition has him with the 4th Battalion)
George Oliver Turner Bagley (1914 edition has him with the 4th Battalion. 1911 Census has him with the 3rd Battalion)
Richard Douglas Bennett (1914 edition has him as 4th Battalion and with the West African Regiment from the 23rd July 1913)
Astley Langrishe Cooper-Key
Neville Hadley Bernard Lyon
Noel Yvon Loftus Welman
Hugh G. Money (Mark on page has partially obscured the battalion number in 1913, but confirmed as 3 in 1914. There is a MiC for a Captain Hugh Gilmore Money, Middlesex Regiment. One of the contact addresses on the reverse is c\o British Military Representative, Supreme War Council, British Section, Versailles.)
Geoffrey Michael John Sichel
Leslie Jabez Lightfoot (1914 edition has him with the Army Pay Department from the 8th February 1913).
Clarence Stuart Hilton

1914 edition adds:-
Richard James Killingworth Todd.Lieutenant with seniority from the 8th February 1913. 1913 List has him as a 2\Lt with the 1st Battalion.

Second Lieutenant

Lanceray Arthur Newnham. (1914 edition has him as Lieutenant with seniority from the 21st February 1913)
Rodney Gransmore. (1914 edition has him as Lieutenant with seniority from the 22nd February 1913)
Wilfred John Ash. (1914 edition has him as Lieutenant with seniority from the 23rd July 1913)
Harold Rupert Herbert

1914 edition adds:-
Arthur Walter White Row, (1913 edition had him with the 1st Battalion)

Quartermaster

William Fulcher – Honorary Captain.

The names not already covered in posts in this thread are highlighted in blue.

Looking at your list you also include a Major Francis Garden Poole. He does not appear on the list of Majors with the Regular Army Battalions of the Middlesex Regiment on the 1913 edition. He is with them on the 1914 edition but is shown as late Captain East Yorkshire Regiment and with seniority from the 18th December 1912.

Of those additional names it may be a co-incidence but the gazetting of Cedric Rupert Hay, Gent, as a Second Lieutenant which appears on page 8216 of the London Gazette dated December 4, 1900, shows he was nominated by the Governor of Victoria. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/27253/page/8216/data.pdf
Wikipedia has an Australian Football Rules player Cedric Rupert Hay from Victoria who was born 27th September, 1880 and who played for Melbourne once in 1900 – could the gazetting have cut short his footballing career one wonders? The webpage has a (low quality) picture of him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ced_Hay

I don’t know if you’ve already identified a candidate for this officer on the Middlesex Officers pictures, but if not could he possibly be “Ced Ray” – the earlier picture would have been him aged 19/20, while if its him as an officer he would have been aged 32.
 

Image courtesy Wikipedia. All image rights remain with the original sources.

For Harold Antrobus Cartwright the National Army Museum catalogue states it has a Copy photograph of Capt Michael Charles Cooper Harrison, DSO MC, 2nd Bn Royal Irish Regiment and Capt Henry Antrobus Cartwright, MC, 4th Bn Duke of Cambridge's Own (Middlesex Regiment), 1916 (c). https://collection.nam.ac.uk/inventory/objects/results.php?shortDescription=&event=&campaign=&associatedName=&unit=duke&placeNotes=&productionNotes=&keyword=&flag=0&page=11

Wilfred John Ash was killed in action on the 14th February 1915 serving with the 3rd Battalion. De Ruvigny’s notes “educ. Littlejohn's, Greenwich ; Haileybury and Sandhurst; gazetted 2nd Lieut., 2nd Battn. Middlesex Regt., 5 Oct. 1910; exchanged to 3rd Battn., then at Lebong, India, July, 1911 ; promoted Lieut., 23 July, 1913. Lieut. Ash was in England on leave when war broke out. He was recalled to rejoin his regt. at Cawnpore, and sailed for India in September. Two or three days before Christmas Day, 1914, he was back again in England with the 3rd Middlesex, who had come over as a complete unit. He went with the regt. to France in January, 1915, and was killed in action on the afternoon of Sunday, 14 Feb. 1915, between Ypres and St. Eloi, while leading his men in a successful counter attack against the enemy's trenches. Col. E. W. R. Stephenson, Commanding the 3rd Battn. Middlesex, wrote that he " died gallantly leading his men in an attempt to capture a trench that had fallen. Previous to this, he saved the life of my nephew, Moller, who had been severely wounded, and after placing him in a place of safety, he again entered the fight. . . . He nobly did his duty, and we deplore his loss." Private Worsfold also wrote: "On the afternoon of Sunday, 14 Feb., we were ordered to attack a position occupied by the enemy, north-west of Ypres and west of the canal. . . . on the morning of the same day we had been badly cut up, and the Surreys, who afterwards came up in support, opened to let us through. Lieut. W. J. Ash, who had been previously wounded in the arm, was still leading up to the last moment." And it has a picture of him.

A better quality version of the picture from that source is available on the Roll of Honour website in connection with the War Memorial at Warlingham, Surrey.

Image courtesy Roll of Honour. https://www.roll-of-honour.com/Surrey/Warlingham.html

So lots of little moves and changes – some individuals may have left by the time the picture was taken, while others might have arrived. I don’t know if it’s possible to work out the rank of each individual present to work out the relevant totals at each level

You know for instance that there is one Lieutenant Colonel present and that would fit with the establishment of an Infantry Battalion.

But while possible, my understanding is that four Majors would be over the norm – hence why the 1913 and 1914 lists shows Major Hingley serving elsewhere. Does this picture actually reflect the presence of four majors, (if you include Major Poole as potentially present)?

A similar exercise for Captain’s, Lieutenants and 2nd Lieutenants may help narrow down considerably who might have been present.

Hope somewhere in all that there is something that is new to you.

Cheers,
Peter

[mrfrank]

Thanks again for your reply Peter and as promised, I’ve had a look back at my notes and this is what I have thus far:

Due to certain positive identifications (and their seniority dates in the Army Lists) I believe the photo was taken at Cawnpore in January or February 1913. I’ve also looked at the Delhi Durbar roll and ‘War Services’ section of the Quarterly Army lists for medal awards which was helpful in identifying certain individuals as follows:

If you number up starting with the front row L-R we have:

1. Captain Herbert William Hilton (KiA 14Feb15)

2. Major Philip Martin Large (KiA 27Apr15)

3. Maj George Henry Neale (KiA 28Sep15) Delhi Durbar Medal

4. Lt Col Ernest William Rokeby Stephenson (KiA 3Apr15). Delhi Durbar.

5. Captain & Adjt Herbert Edward Large (KiA 14Feb15). Delhi Durbar.

6. Major Samuel Howard Hingley (Ashanti Medal 1900)

7. Major Francis Garden Poole (Transferred to Middx Regt 18Dec12, Present at Peking Legation during Boxer Rebellion - DSO and wearing Turkish order of Osmanieh).

Middle Row

8. likely 2nd Lt Wilfred John Ash (from image provided from de Ruvigny’s) (KiA 14Feb15) 

9. Unidentified Lt 

10. Lt Neville Hadley Bernard Lyon 

11. Unidentified Lt 

12. Lt James Dixon (KiA 10Mar15) 

13. Captain Cyril Kitchin (image found on-line)

14. Hon Captain & QM William Fulcher (Soudan Exped - Suakin, Medal & clasp, bronze star. SA Queens Medal. Delhi Durbar)

15. 2nd Lt Lanceray Arthur Newnham

Back Row

16. 2nd Lt Rodney Gransmore (KiA 28Sep15)

17. Unidentified 2nd Lt

18. Unidentified Lt (Unsure, but possibly Geoffrey Michael John Sichel from image posted by rflory)  https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/7900-british-school-registers-and-rolls-of-honor/page/20/

19. Lt Michael Claude Scarborough (KiA 26Sep16)

20. Unidentified Lt 

21. Lt Noel Yvon Loftus Welman (KiA 25Sep15)

22. Unidentified 2nd Lt

Standing alone to rear:

23. Unidentified Lt (or possibly Capt) - different uniform to others (possibly attached to 3rd Middx?)

 

 

Edited 1 July , 2022 by mrfrank

[mrfrank]

…..so including number 18 I’m still to positively identify four Lieutenants and two 2nd Lts.

The possible candidates from the relevant Army Lists would appear to be:

Lt:

Henry Antrobus Cartwright

George Oliver Turner Bagley

Richard Douglas Bennett

Astley Langrishe Cooper-Key

Hugh Gilmore Money

Geoffrey Michael John Sichel

Clarence Stuart Hilton

2nd Lt

Harold Rupert Herbert

Edward Marchant Hodding

………….Any further help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated. 
 Mike.

 

[PRC]

19 hours ago, mrfrank said:

Due to certain positive identifications (and their seniority dates in the Army Lists) I believe the photo was taken at Cawnpore in January or February 1913.

So looking at my post for the known dates of changes during 1913:-

8th February 1913. Leslie Jabez Lightfoot posted Army Pay Department.
Richard James Killingworth Todd promoted Lieutenant but may still have been serving with the 1st Battalion.

21st February 1913. Michael Claud Scarborough promoted Captain. You believe the picture shows him as a Lieutenant.
Lanceray Arthur Newnham promoted Lieutenant. You believe the picture shows him as a 2nd Lieutenant.

22nd February 1913 Rodney Gransmore promoted Lieutenant. You believe the picture shows him as a 2nd Lieutenant.

23rd July 1913 Richard Douglas Bennett posted to the West African Regiment.
Wilfred John Ash promoted Lieutenant.

Unknown date

James Dixon returns to the UK on posting to the 2nd Battalion – believed to be present on this picture.
Harold Antrobus Cartwright returns to the UK on posting to the 4th Battalion.
George Oliver Turner Bagley returns to the UK on posting to the 4th Battalion.
Cedric Rupert Ray returns to the UK on posting to the 6th Battalion.
Richard James Killingworth Todd arrives from the UK
Francis Garden Poole arrives from the UK.
Arthur Walter White Row arrives from the UK

Unfortunately nothing helpful that I could find on the free namesearch part of FIBIS to indicate when those individuals sailed from India or arrived there in the period 1912-1914.

So looking like the picture was taken prior to the 21st February 1913, increasing the likelihood that officers believed to be with them at the start of 1913 were still present, and increasing the chances that those who were on the establishment at the start of 1914 had yet to arrive.

19 hours ago, mrfrank said:

If you number up starting with the front row L-R we have:

Hopefully I’ve understood you correctly, and with a bit of colour coding this reflects what you have stated.

Note – The unknown Lieutenant No.11 was my nomination for Captain Cedric Rupert Day.

Of the other unknowns and assuming the picture was taken prior to the 21st February 1913.

Lieutenants 9 and 20 \ & Lieutenant or Captain 23

Candidates are:-

Astley Langrishe Cooper-Key
Hugh Gilmore Money
Clarence Stuart Hilton

If they hadn’t left India:-
Harold Antrobus Cartwright
George Oliver Turner Bagley
Richard Douglas Bennett
Leslie Jabez Lightfoot

If he’d arrived in India
Richard James Killingworth Todd

2nd Lieutenants 17 & 22.

Harold Rupert Herbert

If he’d arrived in India
Arthur Walter White Row,

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 1 July , 2022 by PRC
Typo

[mrfrank]

On 01/07/2022 at 21:18, PRC said:

So looking at my post for the known dates of changes during 1913:-

8th February 1913. Leslie Jabez Lightfoot posted Army Pay Department.
Richard James Killingworth Todd promoted Lieutenant but may still have been serving with the 1st Battalion.

21st February 1913. Michael Claud Scarborough promoted Captain. You believe the picture shows him as a Lieutenant.
Lanceray Arthur Newnham promoted Lieutenant. You believe the picture shows him as a 2nd Lieutenant.

22nd February 1913 Rodney Gransmore promoted Lieutenant. You believe the picture shows him as a 2nd Lieutenant.

23rd July 1913 Richard Douglas Bennett posted to the West African Regiment.
Wilfred John Ash promoted Lieutenant.

Unknown date

James Dixon returns to the UK on posting to the 2nd Battalion – believed to be present on this picture.
Harold Antrobus Cartwright returns to the UK on posting to the 4th Battalion.
George Oliver Turner Bagley returns to the UK on posting to the 4th Battalion.
Cedric Rupert Ray returns to the UK on posting to the 6th Battalion.
Richard James Killingworth Todd arrives from the UK
Francis Garden Poole arrives from the UK.
Arthur Walter White Row arrives from the UK

Unfortunately nothing helpful that I could find on the free namesearch part of FIBIS to indicate when those individuals sailed from India or arrived there in the period 1912-1914.

So looking like the picture was taken prior to the 21st February 1913, increasing the likelihood that officers believed to be with them at the start of 1913 were still present, and increasing the chances that those who were on the establishment at the start of 1914 had yet to arrive.

Hopefully I’ve understood you correctly, and with a bit of colour coding this reflects what you have stated.

Note – The unknown Lieutenant No.11 was my nomination for Captain Cedric Rupert Day.

Of the other unknowns and assuming the picture was taken prior to the 21st February 1913.

Lieutenants 9 and 20 \ & Lieutenant or Captain 23

Candidates are:-

Astley Langrishe Cooper-Key
Hugh Gilmore Money
Clarence Stuart Hilton

If they hadn’t left India:-
Harold Antrobus Cartwright
George Oliver Turner Bagley
Richard Douglas Bennett
Leslie Jabez Lightfoot

If he’d arrived in India
Richard James Killingworth Todd

2nd Lieutenants 17 & 22.

Harold Rupert Herbert

If he’d arrived in India
Arthur Walter White Row,

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter,

 Yes, you’ve got the numbering right on your very helpful image. I’m pretty confident on all the ranks (as they are quite apparent with the aid of a glass) apart from the chap at the very back. The unknown Lt/No 11 is possibly Harold Antrobus Cartwright as I did find an image for him - and despite it being WW2 era - there were some similarities. 

Thanks again,

Mike

[PRC]

11 hours ago, mrfrank said:

The unknown Lt/No 11 is possibly Harold Antrobus Cartwright as I did find an image for him - and despite it being WW2 era - there were some similarities. 

So if No.11 is another probable, and looking at the four remaining unknowns, is it possible that Cedric Ray is the officer stood at the back, (number 23), tilting the balance towards that officer being a Captain rather than a Lieutenant.

Ears, (shape and position in relation to eyes) and set of the eyes seem a possible, match. A far as can be told from low quality black and white sources the basic colouring is similar - hair, moustache and eyebrows.

Length of eyebrows not so sure. Slight differences in noise, lips and chin shape could be a combination of angles the pictures were taken at, and that there is roughly 13 years between the two images. Hair parting on the older picture of the Australian footballer is unclear, plus of course not only can these things change but the image may have been reversed.

Cheers,
Peter