Serj. William 'Bill' BAGSHAW

[Matlock1418]

William 'Bill' Bagshaw - from oral accounts from his Derbyshire family relatives thought to have been Home Service only and a serjeant in training and a long-term policeman after the war [of course some of this could have come from below!].

William Bagshaw was definitely reported in a local newspaper [Dec 1914 obituary of his brother LCpl. Walter Bagshaw, 6444, RWR] - as an ex-police constable from Hulland Ward, Derbyshire,  reported as given a serjeant's rank and reported as training recruits in Derby in Dec. 1914. [Notts & Derby I'm guessing - 3rd or 4th Bn.???] - so this article would be a possible fit to the larger photo - a family group/which also includes a woman/his wife and two children of the right gender and approx. age, c.6y girl & c.1y boy (I think a boy though in a smock/dress and shorter-haired) [perhaps for many others too!].

No knowledge of any prior military service - could he have had Territorial experience or would his police occupation have prohibited such? [at least whilst he was in the police?] - possibly before??

Possibly/probably seen as an authoritative figure, possibly/probably in his early thirties, and given his previous career - and thus given serjeant rank to further boost him in military authority in the eyes of recruits I would guess. [?]

So how did he end up with that RWR cap badge?

Or is it someone else?

No service number or any other details to help with 'Bill'. [Wasn't intended as a pun!]

Any known records of transfer of N&D to RWR? or did N&D train RWR? or ... anyone got any more ideas or leads that might help me find out more about his wartime please?

In hope ...

[Mark1959]

The CWGC record of Walter gives his father as Thomas. 

1881 census for a large family (10 children) with William. Not with Walter as born c1882. William is aged 1. Address is Matlock Bank. Father Thomas.

1891. Address is Jackson St or Rd Matlock. Birth place of whole family showing as Matlock Bank. 2 more kids have turned up including Walter aged 9.

1898 - Militia Enlistment record for 6092 William Bagshaw into 3rd Battn SF. Born and resident in Matlock. Claimed age is 18y 4m. Occupation is joiner. Religion Wesleyan. Attested 18/1/1898. Note the says this man joined RWR 15/3/1898.

1898 - Attestation for Wm B into RWR. Number 5485. Date 15/3/1898. Father showing as Thomas of Rutland St. Matlock Bank. Names brothers and sister as next of kin as well inc Walter. So same man as census records. Marriage to Ann Gregory in Chorlton 9/5/1908 noted. Saw service in Malta, Bermuda and Gibraltar. To Res 1906. Finished 8 and 4 Service 1910. Rank always Private.

1911 census - address cannot make out but in Belper District. Wm B aged 31 married to Ann with 1daughter. Occupation 1st Class Police Constable. Daughter is Esther Inez aged 2.

1939 Register has a Police pensioner Wm B born 28/9/1879. Wife Ann b. 13/11/1886. Esther Inez b. 2/4/1909. Living in Chapel-en-Le-Frith. NB this indicates attestation age correct.

Hope right man from what you know.

Edit - 1901 census. Thomas and wife Elizabeth on their own in Rutland St. this matches the 1898 attestation address for NoK.

Edited 11 October , 2017 by Mark1959

[Matlock1418]

Mark,

That is fantastic - you've definitely found the right man.

And so quickly!

THANK YOU.

Really great stuff.

Know where the Censuses are to be found - but wonder if you could perhaps please give me a steer toward the other sources, Militia Establishment & Attestation, that you cite. - will help me no doubt with other research too - always learning.

So maybe not/never Notts & Derby after all [Guess he might have changed sometime before or during during wartime, but ...] however this RWR photo now definitely seems to confirm to me that this is the man and his family - brilliant.

Previous service would seem to explain being given serjeant's rank on outbreak of war.

1939 register - not used that one  but you obviously know your way round it - FMP I believe.

Once again many, many thanks.

If anyone else has any other info, however small,  then please don't be shy and intimidated by Mark's really great reply - Would love to hear from you too.

:-)   :-)

 

Edit: Sorry if I'm being thick - 1898 - Militia Enlistment record for 6092 William Bagshaw into 3rd Battn SF = What is SF?

Edited 11 October , 2017 by Matlock1418

[HolymoleyRE]

1 hour ago, Matlock1418 said:

Mark,

That is fantastic - you've definitely found the right man.

And so quickly!

THANK YOU.

Really great stuff.

Know where the Censuses are to be found - but wonder if you could perhaps please give me a steer toward the other sources, Militia Establishment & Attestation, that you cite. - will help me no doubt with other research too - always learning.

So maybe not/never Notts & Derby after all [Guess he might have changed sometime before or during during wartime, but ...] however this RWR photo now definitely seems to confirm to me that this is the man and his family - brilliant.

Previous service would seem to explain being given serjeant's rank on outbreak of war.

1939 register - not used that one  but you obviously know your way round it - FMP I believe.

Once again many, many thanks.

If anyone else has any other info, however small,  then please don't be shy and intimidated by Mark's really great reply - Would love to hear from you too.

:-)   :-)

 

Edit: Sorry if I'm being thick - 1898 - Militia Enlistment record for 6092 William Bagshaw into 3rd Battn SF = What is SF?

Sherwood Foresters i.e the Notts & Derbys', his pre war records are on Find my Past.

 

Regards

 

Andy

Edited 11 October , 2017 by HolymoleyRE

[Matlock1418]

I was being thick - in a moment of inspiration I got it and was coming back to try and spare my embarrassment - but you have beaten me to it and a further edit now cannot do the job. :-(

Thanks for your reply HolyMoleyRE - and the info. :-)

My shame is clear for all to see.  The shame, the shame ..... :-(

Still ... I'm happy with what you have both provided! Happy, happy, happy .... :-)

[Mark1959]

What we now need to find is proof of what he did during WW1. This maybe very difficult.

[HolymoleyRE]

51 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

What we now need to find is proof of what he did during WW1. This maybe very difficult.

Mark, I think the OP suggests he was an old regular called up as a Training Sergeant, a further trawl through local papers held in a Library will hopefully pay off, as it has for me with a couple of enigmas I had.

 

Andt

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, HolymoleyRE said:

Mark, I think the OP suggests he was an old regular called up as a Training Sergeant, a further trawl through local papers held in a Library will hopefully pay off, as it has for me with a couple of enigmas I had.

 

Andt

Thanks.

Newspapers - were my thoughts indeed

[Matlock1418]

On 11/10/2017 at 01:32, Matlock1418 said:

William 'Bill' Bagshaw - from oral accounts from his Derbyshire family relatives thought to have been Home Service only and a serjeant in training and a long-term policeman after the war

Just a rather belated update for anyone who may be following/looking for more info sometime in the future:

 

William 'Bill' Bagshaw was indeed a policeman with the Derbyshire Constabulary, before, during [as above does seem to indicate he seems to have had a temporary secondment to the Army - though no record of this army time, but also no service break, in his police papers] and after the war [1906-1928] - His police service record / Descriptive Register exists - PC - Collar 357.

Police information sourced via the Derbyshire Police Museum - my great thanks to them.

 

P.S. still looking for any more info that can be trawled up on his Army service - before and/or during the war.

:-)

M

 

 

Edited 21 May , 2020 by Matlock1418
small addition

[travers61]

Its possible that his police record will show continuous service throughout WW1, even if he was away in the army. This would be mainly for pension purposes, so that his war service years counted towards his police pension.

 

I remember someone I worked with in a private company in the 1980's saying that the two year gap in his service caused by National Service was counted towards his company pension.

[Matlock1418]

3 hours ago, travers61 said:

Its possible that his police record will show continuous service throughout WW1, even if he was away in the army. This would be mainly for pension purposes, so that his war service years counted towards his police pension.

Thanks.  Yes, that seems very likely.  He did get a police pension.

This chap however seemed to throw a bit of a spanner into the works at the Police Museum - as previously their people seemed to think all wartime service was recorded in police service records, so if not recorded then = no wartime service.  Think that has been disproved by this chap [and others too I now understand]

But hey, we are all leaning more each day.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

For continuity/link to one of his brothers [his youngest] = Walter BAGSHAW, 6444, Royal Warwickshire Regiment - KiA 18/19-12-1914

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/296782-l-cpl-walter-bagshaw-6444-royal-warwickshire-regiment/

M

[Toontraveller]

On 21/05/2020 at 11:26, Matlock1418 said:

Just a rather belated update for anyone who may be following/looking for more info sometime in the future:

 

William 'Bill' Bagshaw was indeed a policeman with the Derbyshire Constabulary, before, during [as above does seem to indicate he seems to have had a temporary secondment to the Army - though no record of this army time, but also no service break, in his police papers] and after the war [1906-1928] - His police service record / Descriptive Register exists - PC - Collar 357.

Police information sourced via the Derbyshire Police Museum - my great thanks to them.

 

P.S. still looking for any more info that can be trawled up on his Army service - before and/or during the war.

:-)

M

 

 

Just picked up on the posting after the update you posted today .
At  the beginning of the The War Police Forces allowed Sergeants and Constables under an agreement  to be temporarily seconded/ loaned to local Regiments to act as Drill Instructors or trainers. In the early stages of the War the local regiments would  possibly be overwhelmed to deliver some off the training required, later on it’s likely more formal arrangements were made and they did rejoin the Colours to deliver specific training. 
The arrangement was  usually supported by the local Chief  Constable and approved by the local Watch Comittee which oversaw the  Police Force at that time.  i.e. Derbyshire Constabulary.

It was not necessarily rejoining the Colours but more supporting the War effort by loaning certain Police Officers with the required skills to the Regiments. Highly likely to have been Police Officers who had previously served in the Army .

There may no record of this service recorded in Army or Police records , unless some local clerk noted it in the specific Police Officers personnel file or the secondment/ loan  was included in the Police Force instructions. Each Police Force possibly doing this differently.

As it was a local arrangement, the service would have counted towards Pension. 

The local arrangement may have possibly  been reported in local newspapers. There are such examples of Police Officers being seconded/ loaned as Drill Instructors ( but not joining the Army) quoted in the Police Review in September 1914 for Police Officers drafted to local Regiments from the Edinburgh Police , West Sussex and Newport ( Monmouthshire) .

 

 

[Matlock1418]

9 hours ago, Toontraveller said:

Just picked up on the posting after the update you posted today .
At  the beginning of the The War Police Forces allowed Sergeants and Constables under an agreement  to be temporarily seconded/ loaned to local Regiments to act as Drill Instructors or trainers. In the early stages of the War the local regiments would  possibly be overwhelmed to deliver some off the training required, later on it’s likely more formal arrangements were made and they did rejoin the Colours to deliver specific training. 
The arrangement was  usually supported by the local Chief  Constable and approved by the local Watch Comittee which oversaw the  Police Force at that time.  i.e. Derbyshire Constabulary.

It was not necessarily rejoining the Colours but more supporting the War effort by loaning certain Police Officers with the required skills to the Regiments. Highly likely to have been Police Officers who had previously served in the Army .

There may no record of this service recorded in Army or Police records , unless some local clerk noted it in the specific Police Officers personnel file or the secondment/ loan  was included in the Police Force instructions. Each Police Force possibly doing this differently.

As it was a local arrangement, the service would have counted towards Pension. 

The local arrangement may have possibly  been reported in local newspapers. There are such examples of Police Officers being seconded/ loaned as Drill Instructors ( but not joining the Army) quoted in the Police Review in September 1914 for Police Officers drafted to local Regiments from the Edinburgh Police , West Sussex and Newport ( Monmouthshire) .

Thank you for your notes which seem to resonate here for Bill Bagshaw - though not [yet?] found a Police Review.

M

[Matlock1418]

On 21/03/2022 at 21:59, Toontraveller said:

Just picked up on the posting after the update you posted today .
At  the beginning of the The War Police Forces allowed Sergeants and Constables under an agreement  to be temporarily seconded/ loaned to local Regiments to act as Drill Instructors or trainers. In the early stages of the War the local regiments would  possibly be overwhelmed to deliver some off the training required, later on it’s likely more formal arrangements were made and they did rejoin the Colours to deliver specific training. 
The arrangement was  usually supported by the local Chief  Constable and approved by the local Watch Comittee which oversaw the  Police Force at that time.  i.e. Derbyshire Constabulary.

It was not necessarily rejoining the Colours but more supporting the War effort by loaning certain Police Officers with the required skills to the Regiments. Highly likely to have been Police Officers who had previously served in the Army .

There may no record of this service recorded in Army or Police records , unless some local clerk noted it in the specific Police Officers personnel file or the secondment/ loan  was included in the Police Force instructions. Each Police Force possibly doing this differently.

As it was a local arrangement, the service would have counted towards Pension. 

The local arrangement may have possibly  been reported in local newspapers. There are such examples of Police Officers being seconded/ loaned as Drill Instructors ( but not joining the Army) quoted in the Police Review in September 1914 for Police Officers drafted to local Regiments from the Edinburgh Police , West Sussex and Newport ( Monmouthshire) .

Hi TT,

Returning to this man and his wartime 'Army service'.

As indicated above his 1914-15 wartime service does seem to have counted towards his police pension - and he was back on the beat in 1916.

= Do you happen to know, typically, if such 'loaned' police officers whilst with the army continued to be paid for by the police?  Or for such a period paid by the army?

TIA.

M

Edited 27 May , 2022 by Matlock1418

[Matlock1418]

Wondering if anyone can please help me find a 1901 Census [31 March] for this man - believed to in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment and possibly serving overseas [possibly in Durban with 2 RWR I think]. Edit; Struck because I'd mucked up his bn. and posting.  Thanks @PRC for your reply below

TIA

M

Edited 27 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
strike & edit note

[PRC]

3 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

Wondering if anyone can please help me find a 1901 Census [31 March] for this man - believed to in the Royal Warwickshire Regiment and possibly serving overseas [possibly in Durban with 2 RWR I think].

If you are still talking abour William, then his WO97 series records shows in Malta from 1898 to 1902. As overseas Army garrisons were outside the scope of the 1901 Census of England & Wales, unless he had wrangled some UK leave at the key time, then he would not appear on that census.

Image courtesy Genes Reunited.

And something worth considering. Where records have survived for time served men who were tempted by the 1 year Special Reservists enlistments on offer in the August - October 1914 period, my usual experience is that previous Regular Army papers are bundled in with them. After all it was all pensionable service, plus medical and disciplinary notes would still be relevant. Of course mistakes are made \ records can't be found, etc, etc.. But would the indication of his records being held in the WO97 series possibly increase the chances that he did not formally join the Army during the Great War, being present instead on loan from the local Constabulary, (although presumably in army uniform?).

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

If you are still talking abour William, then his WO97 series records shows in Malta from 1898 to 1902. As overseas Army garrisons were outside the scope of the 1901 Census of England & Wales, unless he had wrangled some UK leave at the key time, then he would not appear on that census.

Thanks for your reply - I'd mixed my bn and posting - thanks for sorting out again.

That was my thought/worry about overseas - shame.

4 minutes ago, PRC said:

on loan from the local Constabulary, (although presumably in army uniform?).

So far that seems likely the case - currently trying to clarify who might have paid him.

M

Edited 27 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
add

[PRC]

On 11/10/2017 at 01:32, Matlock1418 said:

Or is it someone else?

Not conclusive proof by any means, but his pre-war service would not have entitled him to any service medals, so the absence of any medal ribbons in the picture of the sergeant would at least be consistant with that.

Cheers,
Peter

[Matlock1418]

On 27/05/2022 at 17:29, PRC said:

On 11/10/2017 at 01:32, Matlock1418 said:

Or is it someone else?

Not conclusive proof by any means, but his pre-war service would not have entitled him to any service medals, so the absence of any medal ribbons in the picture of the sergeant would at least be consistant with that.

I think the photo has been subsequently identified beyond reasonable doubt by his family as William BAGSHAW c.1915.

[The photo is an extract from a family group, wife and two oldest children - which did help - and it was kept by his brother]

Seems only HS so no medals - and back to being a Derbyshire policeman in 1916.

M

Edit: A belated thank you for continuing to look @PRC 

Edited 29 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
Edit

[Toontraveller]

Good morning, 

I still suspect it was a “local “arrangement/ engagement and he was paid for by the Police whist lent to the Army as a Drill Instructor in the early stages of the War, invariably for a local Regiment. This would not affect his Police  Pension and count towards their Police Service. They would be able to restart their police career on return to their Force but not to be noted as having joined “ The Colours” . Some of them were reported as temporarily given the rank of Colour  Sgt not sure if this applied to all .

It is not an area that I have looked at in detail but LLT covers various legislation that covers certain financial  arrangements for Police Officers who joined the Navy or Army .

He might not have been a Reservist and therefore not covered by the Police Reservists ( Allowances Act)  1914 which allowed for certain allowances to be paid so they were not worse off after rejoining the Navy or Army at the outset of War.

The Police Constables ( Naval and Military Service) Act 1914 amended the above legislation and ensured if they were given permission to enlist in the Navy or Army by the by local Watch Committee or Chief Constable his military service counted towards his time calculated for his Police Pension . This was actively encouraged if they had “specialist skills “;which could render special service to the Navy or  Army

The “local “ arrangement  would likely have changed as the War continued and a more formal arrangement was undertaken, especially if you think the Police Forces employed a small number of Police Officers. The  loan of an experienced Police Officer whilst not being able to recruit a replacement for him into the Police Force would cause a problem, something that could not continue indefinitely.

Additional legislation was passed under the Police ( Emergency Provisions ) Act 1915  covering financial arrangements for Police Officers serving in the Armed Services.

At some stage he might have  been moved from Police to Army Service but unless you can locate a local record specific to him  it’s difficult to know 100% . Sorry.

“The Police Review and Parade Room Gossip” publication  was later published as “The Police Review “is not available on line as far as I am aware but copies I believe are held  in the British Library on microfiche. I have some  photocopies of certain dates covering WW1 period and it specifically mentions the “local “ arrangement / engagement  for Drill Instructors I mentioned above as early as the 18 th Sept 1914.

 

 

[Matlock1418]

35 minutes ago, Toontraveller said:

I still suspect it was a “local “arrangement/ engagement and he was paid for by the Police whist lent to the Army as a Drill Instructor in the early stages of the War, invariably for a local Regiment. This would not affect his Police  Pension and count towards their Police Service. They would be able to restart their police career on return to their Force but not to be noted as having joined “ The Colours” . Some of them were reported as temporarily given the rank of Colour  Sgt not sure if this applied to all .

It is not an area that I have looked at in detail but LLT covers various legislation that covers certain financial  arrangements for Police Officers who joined the Navy or Army .

He might not have been a Reservist and therefore not covered by the Police Reservists ( Allowances Act)  1914 which allowed for certain allowances to be paid so they were not worse off after rejoining the Navy or Army at the outset of War.

The Police Constables ( Naval and Military Service) Act 1914 amended the above legislation and ensured if they were given permission to enlist in the Navy or Army by the by local Watch Committee or Chief Constable his military service counted towards his time calculated for his Police Pension . This was actively encouraged if they had “specialist skills “;which could render special service to the Navy or  Army

The “local “ arrangement  would likely have changed as the War continued and a more formal arrangement was undertaken, especially if you think the Police Forces employed a small number of Police Officers. The  loan of an experienced Police Officer whilst not being able to recruit a replacement for him into the Police Force would cause a problem, something that could not continue indefinitely.

Additional legislation was passed under the Police ( Emergency Provisions ) Act 1915  covering financial arrangements for Police Officers serving in the Armed Services.

At some stage he might have  been moved from Police to Army Service but unless you can locate a local record specific to him  it’s difficult to know 100% . Sorry.

“The Police Review and Parade Room Gossip” publication  was later published as “The Police Review “is not available on line as far as I am aware but copies I believe are held  in the British Library on microfiche. I have some  photocopies of certain dates covering WW1 period and it specifically mentions the “local “ arrangement / engagement  for Drill Instructors I mentioned above as early as the 18 th Sept 1914.

TT, Thank you for your reply which is very informative and which has expanded my rather limited knowledge on the subject of the Police situation.

I believe it does seem rather likely that, early in the war, William BAGSHAW was just loaned by the Derby Constabulary and consequently doesn't have any further Army service record or number for his wartime military duties. To be "given the rank of Serjeant" [presumably to give him, a PC, authority over Army recruits whilst acting in the likes of a role as a Drill Instructor] does seem to err toward a seemingly flexible 'local' arrangement.

It is interesting, and I hope helpful, that WB's Derbyshire Police Descriptive Register makes no reference to a break in his police service nor his service with the Army during this period = Whilst for some police officers there is a note of a move to the military on their DR it has only been through the evidence of WB's 'Army service' that it has become recognised that such service was possible and for it to not be recorded [at least in Derbyshire].  Generally this now seems to mean DR probably cannot be seen as evidence of not serving in a military function during the war.  This quite possibly now means, if only looking at DR, that there is an underestimation of the military service contribution undertaken/made by police officers during the war [at least in Derbyshire].

M

 

Edited 29 May , 2022 by Matlock1418
typo

[Toontraveller]

Matlock, glad it helped, sadly trying to trace Police Officers who served in WW1 is not always  straight forward as there is no central depository for any records.  Glad Derbyshire have a Police Museum that also helped you.

The numbers involved are likely to be very small compared to those who served in the Navy or Army in WW1 , for example Newport ( Monmouthshire) sent four  Police Officers , West Sussex , Police Officers based at Worthing lent five. ( Sept 1914) 

So possibly the numbers for Derbyshire Police Force would be similar. 

Edited 29 May , 2022 by Toontraveller
Typo.

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Toontraveller said:

The numbers involved are likely to be very small compared to those who served in the Navy or Army in WW1 , for example Newport ( Monmouthshire) sent four  Police Officers , West Sussex , Police Officers based at Worthing lent five. ( Sept 1914) 

So possibly the numbers for Derbyshire Police Force would be similar.

Once again, thanks for your knowledgeable thoughts.

M