UNKNOWN R.S.M. - The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)

[Guest]

19 hours ago, thetrenchrat22 said:

Richard 

 

any news on the list from David Avery at CWGC 

 

alan

 

 

16 hours ago, thetrenchrat22 said:

Mick

 

that is upto David to decide if it's going to be additional work for him or  by law he can't release the info to a third party.  

 

He he could pass the work onto an ACO to complete and send to Richard. 

 

 

 

42 minutes ago, micks said:

Alan

 

Yes, the CWGC will ultimately make their decision based upon their protocol. However I will not have my name attached to a submission which I disagree with.

ie post # 8

 

Mick

 

      Any chance you can keep the office admin chat via PM. This was supposed to be a thread on an unknown RSM, not a baffling exchange of office chit-chat

[laughton]

David is preparing a redacted list to protect private information. The list is to be prepared and a full response is to follow next week. I will do my best to update it and make it available to all that are doing the research.

 

Captain Edwards is ID Case 255

 

Quote

With regard to a complete list of ‘open’/outstanding identification cases that are currently being looked into, I agree that there is indeed merit in providing this to avoid any unnecessary duplication of work/research by yourself and other researchers from across the world, as has been proven with a number of cases recently.  

 

Please be aware that this will be a redacted version of our current trackers due to data protection etc. however it will at least be possible to provide you with a complete list of the following details:

-          ID case reference numbers

-          The cemetery/grave reference being investigated

-          The casualty(s) surrounding the identification research

 

I will be back in touch next week as mentioned with a full response.

 

[laughton]

Updating information now that I have access to the war diaries. The remains were at 57c.Q.27.a.3.5 which is about 3,200 yards northwest of Gouzeaucourt.

 

The six (6) men in the Gouzeaucourt New British Cemetery (CWGC Link) were 6th (Service) Battalion, Queen's (Royal West Surrey) Regiment.

 

The war diary tells of their move to the area 25th/26th November 1917 (page 256 of 784). Combined map of 57c L,R) and 57b(G,M) on page 257 of 784.

 

I have not yet found the specific war diary for the 6th QRWSR in Ance$try, then I remembered they are on the Regimental Web Site (November 1917). Six (6) O.R. are reported killed, which coincides with the CWGC list.

Edited 3 February , 2018 by laughton

[laughton]

On 20 November 1917, when in the immediate area of the remains. there were two Serjeants reported KIA that are on the Cambrai Memorial: (the search was for 15 November to 15 December)

 

Serjeant LISNEY, GEORGE

Service Number G/156

Died 20/11/1917

6th Bn. 
The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)

 

Serjeant MATTHEWS, FREDERICK

Service Number G/441

Died 20/11/1917

Aged 23

"D" Coy. 6th Bn. 
The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)

Son of Frederick and Emily Matthews, of The Lodge, Combe Common, Chiddingfold, Surrey.

 

Would there be something in their records if they were also taking the position as a R.S.M. or W.O.?

 

It was a big operation on the 20th. They left Heudecourt (my TMC 57c.W.21.a) and proceeded to the Brigade Assembly Position east of Gonnelieu (my TMC 57c.R.22.c). On that day 2nd Lieut Fox and 11 O.Rs were killed. They captured Pam Pam Farm to the east (my TMC 57c.R.18.a).

 

They were within 2,500 yards of where the remains were found at 57c.Q.27.a.3.5. That specific spot is very close to a cemetery (and perhaps a church nope a windmill)  shown on the trench maps. Were they taken back and buried in that location?

 

i will go back and see what they reference for concentrations in Gouzeaucourt New British Cemetery.

Edited 3 February , 2018 by laughton
windmill not church

[laughton]

The cemetery that is near where the remains were recovered clearly shows on Google Earth as a CWGC Cemetery. It turns out to be:

 

METZ-EN-COUTURE COMMUNAL CEMETERY BRITISH EXTENSION

 

It is to the immediate east of the Communal Cemetery and directly abutting. The CEGC tells us:

Quote

The British Extension was begun in April 1917, and used until March, 1918, and two graves were added in the following September. These original burials, made by Field Ambulances and fighting units, are in Plots I and II; Plots III and IV were added after the Armistice by the concentration of graves from the immediate neighbourhood, including:- METZ-EN-COUTURE BRITISH CEMETERY No.2, which was on the West side of the village, a little South of the road to Ruyaulcourt. It contained the graves of 35 soldiers from the United Kingdom, mainly of the 58th (London) and 47th (London) Divisions, who fell in 1917 and 1918.

 

That means it existed in November 1917 when the Unknown Casualty fell. He may have gone to the Field Ambulance and died there, rather than on the battlefield. The remains were recovered at the east edge of the British extension, which I would place at GPS coordinates of 50° 3'43.80"N 3° 4'35.42"E.

 

There is one Canadian soldier in that cemetery who served as Christopher Lewis #2188343, 6th Battalion Canadian Railway Troops. He died on 30 November 1917. That is of value, as he was reported MIA and presumed dead, yet ended up buried in that cemetery (Casualty Card). There is no COG-BR for his grave (Plot 2 Row F Grave 25), yet his casualty card makes no reference to a burial in that cemetery. His E-13 says he was to have been named on the Vimy Memorial as an UNKNOWN but then they discovered where he was buried. Concentrations appear only to have occured into Plots 3 and 4.

 

What we know for sure now is that he was buried at the Communal Cemetery and perhaps in the German Cemetery that was located there as well. It was at 57c.Q.27.a.2.4.

 

A side benefit was the finding of the Canadian Airman in Plot 2 Row H Grave 45 (COG-BR 2303452). I have sent that on to Trevor Henshaw as it may be Captain Arthur Spencer Allen, 9 Squadron RFC, lost at that location and shot by a German on 30 April 1917 (because the burning plane was on top of him). He was in that exact location.

[ss002d6252]

2 hours ago, laughton said:

On 20 November 1917, when in the immediate area of the remains. there were two Serjeants reported KIA that are on the Cambrai Memorial: (the search was for 15 November to 15 December)

 

Serjeant LISNEY, GEORGE

Service Number G/156

Died 20/11/1917

6th Bn. 
The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)

 

Serjeant MATTHEWS, FREDERICK

Service Number G/441

Died 20/11/1917

Aged 23

"D" Coy. 6th Bn. 
The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)

Son of Frederick and Emily Matthews, of The Lodge, Combe Common, Chiddingfold, Surrey.

 

Would there be something in their records if they were also taking the position as a R.S.M. or W.O.?

 

It was a big operation on the 20th. They left Heudecourt (my TMC 57c.W.21.a) and proceeded to the Brigade Assembly Position east of Gonnelieu (my TMC 57c.R.22.c). On that day 2nd Lieut Fox and 11 O.Rs were killed. They captured Pam Pam Farm to the east (my TMC 57c.R.18.a).

 

They were within 2,500 yards of where the remains were found at 57c.Q.27.a.3.5. That specific spot is very close to a cemetery (and perhaps a church)  shown on the trench maps. Were they taken back and buried in that location?

 

i will go back and see what they reference for concentrations in Gouzeaucourt New British Cemetery.

Neither of the war gratuities for these men appear to have been paid at anything above the level of a bog standard serjeant.

Craig

[HertsHistorian]

Laughton,

I would suggest this man is the most likely candidate? https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/315301/norris,-/

 

720099 RSM HW Norris DCM of 1/24th London Regiment, killed on the opening day of the German Spring Offensive. According to CWGC records he has a special memorial in Metz en Couture Communal Cemetery Extension, his original grave in Metz en Couture British Cemetery No.2 having been lost.

 

Critically, the 24th (County of London) Battalion, London Regiment (The Queen's) wore the badges (the Paschal Lamb) and many of the distinctions of the Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment. See here: http://www.steppingforwardlondon.org/24th-county-of-london-battalion-the-london-regiment-the-queens.html

 

The Battalion's War Diary entry for 20 March 1918 records the battalion moved up into the forward area that afternoon, being established at by 1700h. It places Bn HQ, B and D Coys in the village of Metz and A and C Coys in Winchester Valley. The entry for the next day records heavy shelling and gas from 0300 and the subsequent action. RSM Norris is listed among those killed.

 

I'm not an expert on uniforms, but by this stage of the war is it possible the battalion had lost its 'T.24.LONDON' shoulder titles and adopted the standardised "QUEENS' worn by the regiment proper? This might explain the QRWS attribution rather than 24/Londons.

 

Best wishes,

Alex

Edited 4 February , 2018 by HertsHistorian

[HertsHistorian]

Further to my last, he was awarded the DCM for conspicuous gallantry at the Battle of Festubert between 25-26 May 1915. Citation attached.

 

Alex

 

Edited 4 February , 2018 by HertsHistorian

[laughton]

Fascinating Alex! A Canadian would never know these facts.

 

I notice on the site it says:

Quote

 

Re-designated as a Territorial Battalion of The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment)

without change of title 3^rd / 24^th Battalion combined with 3^rd / 22^nd Battalion to become 22^nd(Reserve) Battalion Location of operations

 

When they refer to the "without change of title" I assume they are referring to the title of the battalion and not a physical title that might be worn. If they were re-designated as a territorial battalion of the QRWSR, is it possible that they were wearing the badge or distinguishing marks of that unit, rather than something that appeared similar?

 

It would be good if we could get comparative images of the identifying badges or titles.

 

I did find the March 1918 Brigade War Diary (page 379 of 818) on Ance$try. I have yet to master the process, but for my future reference I found it in the file that the title says is the 1/23 Battalion (page 2 of 407). Not sure how you would find that other than by accident! So finally we get the March 1918 (page 340 of 407). Okay, now I have it where it says that Norris was killed and that they were starting at or near the 2nd Defence System at 57c.Q.17.a/c and moving up and into Metz (my TMC 57c.Q.20). If they made it into the centre of Metz, that places them at 1,00 yards northwest of the German Cemetery (TMC 57c.Q.27.a.3.5). Since the remains were found in Plot V at Gouzeaucourt we do know they were concentrated and that COG-BR 2004897 is dated July 1919.

 

To bring it together, an extract of the trench map:

 

(OOPS! I removed that as I put the DEFENCE LINE in P.17 instead of Q.17 - Alex has added the correct one in Post #36)

 

Richard

 

p.s. I should have mentioned that I put the ZIP FILES here for the Metz-en-Couture Communal Cemetery British Extension on our CEFSG Shared MediaFire site. That has both the GRRF and COG-BR documents.

 

The ones for Gouzeaucourt New British Cemetery were already in that file.

 

Edited 4 February , 2018 by laughton
wrong trench map coordinate

[Howard]

Here is a map annotated by Lt. Col. A.A. Messer in the "Body Density" series showing Metz-en-Couture BC No.2

 

Howard

[HertsHistorian]

Laughton,

 

To the best of my understanding, the 24th London Regiment wore an almost identical uniform to that of the Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment). The only difference (initially at least) being that the brass shoulder titles worn by Other Ranks read 'T.24.London' rather than 'Queen's'. I think the Officers uniform would have been identical. The London Regiment is a difficult one to fully unpick due to the different capbadges and identities between the battalions. The first four battalions were badged Royal Fusiliers and resembled that regular regiment. 22nd and 24th battalions were both allied to the Queen's, wore their capbadge and carried the Queen's name from 1908 as the 22nd and 24th (County of London) Battalions, London Regiment (The Queen's).

 

I have had a look in the Regimental History of 24th Londons, 'The Lambert and Southwark Volunteers', by JMA Tamplin TD for further details and found something really interesting with regards uniform, which might explain the original identification as 'Unknown RSM, Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment': 

 

(Again, this not an area I'm particularly well versed in, but as a Regimental Sergeant Major his uniform may have been quite different and actually resembled an officers in some respects, particularly regimental buttons and collar badges - It certainly does in several orders of dress in my regiment today.)

 

There is a photo of RSM Arthur Howles MC, one of Norris' predecessors as RSM 1/24/Londons which must be dated between 1917-1919 (as he is wearing his MC ribbon, but no campaign ribbons). In it he is quite clearly wearing the collar dogs and buttons of the Queen's Royal West Surrey Regiment (and no shoulder titles). If RSM Norris was similarly attired when he was killed, this could explain how he came to be identified as such. I'm not sure about copyright etc. so will have to send it to you as a private message.

 

In terms of the movements, I read it that the battalion started in Metz and Winchester Valley (between the village and the current CWGC cemetery), following a Gas and HE Explosive bombardment on Metz the battalion moved up between 0700 and 1200 NE to Q.17.a and c, a position centred on Snap Trench on the forward slope of the Trescault Spur, SW of Beaucamp. The diary notes the following were killed in Metz or in completing that move forward: Major Nadaud, Lieutenant Mitchell, 2/Lieutenant Poland and RSM Norris. It also states the CO, Lt Colonel Millner was also wounded - given they both belonged to Bn HQ, this is possibly in the same instance as RSM Norris' death. It held this position until the early hours of 23 March when it fell back on the Metz Switch trench located just to the East of Metz.

 

Major Nadaud and 2/Lt Poland were initially buried at Equancourt Churchyard , the location where the battalion's transport was located, Lt Mitchell (who appears to have been Royal West Kents) is commemorated on the Pozeries memorial. There are also several other 24th Londons casualties in Metz en Couture Communal Cemetery from this period.

 

Best wishes,

Alex

[laughton]

Oops, I had the map showing P.17 instead of Q.17 - crazy Canadian! I removed mine for now.

 

Interesting to see if the other three were also concentrated into Gouzeaucourt, which  would have been easier if the information on the GRRF was correct. They should have the same trench map coordinates if exhumed (57c.Q.27.a.3.5). That would then indicate that these graves were not lost in later battles, rather they were never in the Mez-en-Court British Cemetery No. 2 (which no longer exists).

 

Rifleman REDDICK, J

Service Number 18667

Died 02/12/1917

11th Bn. 
Royal Irish Rifles

 

Serjeant MACKENZIE, H

Service Number 420543

Died 21/07/1917

10th Bn. 
London Regiment

 

Private PEPPERELL, W

Service Number 722460

Died 21/03/1918

24th Bn. 
London Regiment

 

Unfortunately I did not find any others with those coordinates. They may be in a different cemetery or it may be that those three were in the Mex #2 cemetery to start. Either NORRIS never was or he is not the one you have discovered.

[laughton]

Thanks Alex (HertsHistorian)! To get this back onto the page, as I will need all this if we go forward, I will post this back on the GWF topic. I understand that you sent to Howes image by email in the event there was a copyright issue. In the event that others have the book, this is the reference that you provided to the Howes Image:

 

Quote

The photo of RSM Howes is from:

 

Tamplin, J.M.A., The Lambeth and Southwark Volunteers: A Century of Voluntary Service in Volunteers and Territorials 1860-1960 (Trustees of the Regimental Historical Fund, London, 1965).

 

It is a history of the 24th Londons written by a former officer who served in the regiment following WW2 and limited to just 600 copies! Mine is borrowed from the Sandhurst Library. 

The Howes photograph is plate 23. 

 

Two questions, if I may:

1. I noticed on Post #113 in the other topic you sent the 24/LR had a shoulder patch marked "The Queen's". Does that suggest that our RSM may have had that on his shoulder? That would most certainly explain why he was catalogued as "UNKNOWN R.S.M. Queen's RWS" on the COG-BR.
    
2. In the image of RSM Howes, there is no shoulder patch. There are however distinguishing marks on the (a) collar tags, (b) buttons and (c) patches (crest) on the lower arms. Are those all "Queen's" related? I assume the collar tags are the "Paschal Lamb" and the buttons are the "Queen's", as in the sample you provided? What are the crest markings on the lower arm?

(a)  (b)  (c) 

 

For my future reference, these are the two websites that have been referenced:

• http://www.queensroyalsurreys.org.uk/reg_badges/reg_badges.shtml
• http://www.steppingforwardlondon.org/24th-county-of-london-battalion-the-london-regiment-the-queens.html

[HertsHistorian]

Laughton,

 

If I’m reading the COG-BRs correctly, the Metz en Couture British Cemetery No.2 appears to have been at 57c.Q.19.a.9.6 (seemingly slightly to the east of the location indicated on the body density map posted by Howard) from which grid area 41 British Soldiers were exhumed and moved to the present communal cemetery. They make up  the following plots:

 

·      III.A.17-20.

·      III.B.11-20

·      III.C.1-10,

·      III.D.11, 14-20, 

·      III.F.1, 16-20

·      IV.B.1-3

 

Of these three are unknowns, 1 RFA, 1 RGA and 1 completely unknown.

 

Seven of them are soldiers of 1/24 London killed in March 1918 (CQMS Horne, LCpls Lidbetter and Wheeler, Ptes Austin, Baldwin, Keeler, and Weir). Four other soldiers from the battalion are buried in the Communal Cemetery. They were concentrated from 57.c.Q.16.b.8.8 (Ptes Gilden and Howe) Q.16.c.8.8 (Ptes Hall and Beale).

 

In answer to your questions

1. Quite possibly: I think pictorial evidence of what uniform distinctions were in use by the battalion during 1918 might be useful. I will have a look through their history to see if I can find any evidence of the cloth titles. An expert of the London Regiment might well be able to provide us a steer on this one!
2. As you suggest, (a) is a collar badge of the Queen's, the scroll under the Paschal Lamb bearing the title, 'THE QUEEN'S', as will have been used by other battalions of the Queen's Royal West Surreys (b) although clearer on the original image,  this resembles the design of a Queen's regimental button far more than that of a general service button - on these buttons both 'The Queen's' and 'Royal West Surrey Regiment' were written. (c) This is the royal coat of arms; the badge of rank of a Warrant Officer Class 1, as worn by a Regimental Sergeant Major or equivalent appointment.

Conceivably, if RSM Norris' uniform was the same as Howles, this might explain why his remains could have been identified simply as an RSM of the Queen's Royal West Surreys. 

 

Alex

[laughton]

I checked the COG-BR records for the two cemeteries (Gouzeaucourt and Metz-en-Couture) and both were handled by the 69th Labour Company, signed by Captain E. Fouke. That might initially suggest that they would have been familiar with the markings of the 1st/24th Battalion of the London Regiment. However, there is a difference in the timeline, as the COG-BR for the RSM in Gouzeaucourt is date 25 July 1919 and Metz-en-Couture are dated 20/21 August 1918. That could explain why they had not yet seen the number of men identified as the 1st/24th Battalion.

 

On checking, I also noticed that most of the graves in Metz-en-Couture were properly identified as men of the 1st/24th, even though the CWGC website shows many of the men as just 24th. That should be corrected with the CWGC Enquiries group, who make similar corrections almost daily. I will send that in as a simple email. Only Hall and Horne are not identified on the COG-BR as of the 1st/24th, so that would need to be confirmed from another source. The COG-BR also lists Horn as a Company Serjeant Major with a date of death of 25 March 1918. Keeler was reported with a death of 21 July 1918 (probably a carry over from the entry above him).

 

Would all of these men have been wearing uniforms that could also have been confused with The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment), if it was the same group that had investigated RSM Norris (if he is the unknown RSM) the month before? It could also be that all of these men had identity discs or other details that clearly identified them by name and unit, or wiith the name they could check the unit.

 

Somehow they knew Peppler and Norris were 24th or 1st/24th when they set out the Special Memorial details (GRRF 2303415).

 

surname	initials	rank	London Regiment	#	Metz-en-Couture
AUSTIN	W J	Private	24th Bn.	'738038'	IV. B. 3. (COG-BR says 1/24)
BALDWIN	G E	Private	24th Bn.	'738040'	III. F. 17. (COG-BR says 1/24)
BEALL	J H	Private	24th Bn.	'723513'	IV. D. 15. COG-BR says 1/24)
GILDEN	W T	Private	24th Bn.	'722481'	IV. D. 7. (COG-BR says 1/24)	no date
HALL	S G	Private	24th Bn.	'720923'	IV. D. 14.
KEELER	F J	Private	24th Bn.	'738092'	III. F. 19. (COG-BR says 1/24)	says 21 July 1918
LIDBETTER	J	Lance Corporal	24th Bn.	'721423'	III. C. 8. (COG-BR says 1/24
NORRIS, D C M	H W	Regimental Serjeant Major	24th Bn.	'720099'	Metz-en-Couture Brit. Cem. Mem. 4.
PEPPERELL	W	Private	24th Bn.	'722460'	Metz-en-Couture Brit. Cem. Mem. 1.
WEIR	A	Private	24th Bn.	'735072'	III. F. 20. (COG-BR says 1/24)
HORN	A	Company Quartermaster Serjeant	"B" Coy. 24th Bn.	'720093'	III. A. 17.	says CSM 25 March 1918
WHEELER	W G H	Lance Corporal	1st/24th Bn.	'738035'	IV. B. 2. (COG-BR says 1/24)
HOWE	C J	Private	"D" Coy. 1st/24th Bn.	'723454'	IV. D. 8. (COG-BR says 1/24)	no date

 

HOPEFULLY WE WILL HEAR FROM THE LONDON REGIMENT EXPERT!

[laughton]

If we are going to move on to the next stage of drafting a report then we need to figure out why RSM Norris is on the memorial (GRRF 2303451) for the now extinct Metz-en-Couture British Cemetery No. 2 57c.Q.19.a.9.6, if in fact he had been buried at the Metz-en-Couture Communal Cemetery German Extension 57c.Q.27.a.2.5 (GRRF 2303451). Until this morning I had not figured out that the German Extension is what is currently known as the Metz-en-Couture British Extension, as they have the same trench map coordinates (GRRF 2303418). Thanks to the Chinese Labourer who provided that information (Tsing Tao who changed to Chen Wen Chu 5 February 1919). That explains why it is the existing Communal Cemetery Extension 57c.Q.27a.2.5 that is marked as the German Extension on the body density map.

 

Thanks to Alex (HertsHistorian) who figured out in Post #39 that the trench map coordinates for the extinct Metz-en-Couture British Cemetery No. 2 was at 57c.Q.19.a.9.6 (COG-BRs 2303440, 2303449, and 2303447).

 

The remains were found at 57c.Q.27.a.3.5 so they were either within the German-then-British Extension or they were just 50 yards to the north. My "supposition" is that he was in the German Extension when he was exhumed and not in the British Cemetery No. 2. It could be that they were slightly different extensions, which would explain why he was not left where he was but instead concentrated into the Gouzeaucourt New British Cemetery by the 69th Labour Coy on or about 25 July 1919. The COG-BRs show they were placing the concentrated remains in the British Extension around 20 August 1919, so only a month later. Granted, those were concentrations from the old British Cemetery No. 2, not the extensions. The British Extension may not have been open for concentrations in the prior month.

 

Putting this all together we have the remains and cemeteries here (using the Great War British Trench Map Coordinates Converter):

• Metz-en_Couture Extensions (German & British): 57c.Q.27.a.2.5 (GPS 50.0627, 3.0761)
  • that relates to GPS of 50° 3'45.72"N 3° 4'33.96"E
  • that is a little to the north as compared to where it really is on Google Earth at 50° 3'42.81"N 3° 4'33.34"E
• Metz-en-Couture British Cemetery No. 2 57c.Q.19.a.9.6 (50.0711, 3.0538)

I checked the ICRC to see if there is any notice of RSM Norris being in German hands. There was not, at least in the London Regiment. He could be misplaced.

 

 

Edited 3 April , 2018 by laughton
typo

[laughton]

For the moment, I am going to downgrade this to "Possible CWGC Reports".

 

My issue with this one is "Could we ever sell this to the CWGC or would they just shoot us down in flames ?"

 

Take a look at what the CWGC says about the current Metz-en-Couture Communal Cemetery British Extension:

Quote

The village was captured by the 10th and 11th King's Royal Rifle Corps on the 4th and 5th April 1917, evacuated on the 23rd March 1918, and retaken by the 1st Otago Regiment on the following 6th September. It was noted for its extensive system of underground cellars. It was later "adopted" by the County Borough of Halifax. The Communal Cemetery was used by the enemy for the burial of German soldiers and also of three R.F.C. Officers, whose graves have now been removed to the British Extension. On the East side of it a German Extension was made containing the graves of 252 German soldiers and one man of the Chinese Labour Corps; the German graves have now been removed to other cemeteries and the Chinese grave to the British Extension. The British Extension was begun in April 1917, and used until March, 1918, and two graves were added in the following September. These original burials, made by Field Ambulances and fighting units, are in Plots I and II; Plots III and IV were added after the Armistice by the concentration of graves from the immediate neighbourhood, including:- METZ-EN-COUTURE BRITISH CEMETERY No.2, which was on the West side of the village, a little South of the road to Ruyaulcourt. It contained the graves of 35 soldiers from the United Kingdom, mainly of the 58th (London) and 47th (London) Divisions, who fell in 1917 and 1918. There are now nearly 500, 1914-18 war casualties commemorated in this site. Of these, almost 50 are unidentified and special memorials are erected in the cemetery recording the names of four soldiers from the United Kingdom, buried in Metz-en-Couture British Cemetery No.2, whose graves could not be found on concentration. The cemetery covers an area of 2,212 square metres and is enclosed on three sides by a rubble wall.

 

Obviously the German Extension was on the east side of the Communal Cemetery, which is where the British Extension is today. This may be like a few other cemeteries where they removed the Germans and then used those places for Commonwealth burials. Perhaps it was the British Extension immediately on the east of the communal cemetery and then the German extension a bit further east, then removed and closed. It would have been empty. Remember this is not CURRENT WORDING but what was written in the 1920's.

 

It then goes on to talk about the MECBR No. 2 having those graves concentrated into Plots III and IV after the armistice. In the Memorial GRRF 2303415 it says "whose graves were destroyed in later battles". That means the complete cemetery was not destroyed, just a few graves. We know this also from Alex's post #39 where he found the trench map coordinates for the men that were removed from that old cemetery to the existing cemetery. That raises the question as to whether all four (4) of those men were not found because they were really buried in the German extension? That might be answered if we could also find Sgt. H. T. McKenzie #420545 of the 2nd/10th London Regiment. 

1. There was no McKenzie lost in France in July-August 1917 that matches that description or anything close (CWGC Link).
2. In the event it was MacKenzie, the same story (CWGC Link).
3. Nobody in that period with #420545 (CWGC Link).
4. The only one dead in the war in France with #420545 is Sgt. Knell in 1918 with a known grave (CWGC Link).
5. A Private Henry Todd (H T) McKenzie is on the Loos Memorial for 1915 (CWGC Link).
6. Here he is and his number is #420543 and name is MacKenzie (CWGC Link).

What about Reddick?

1. Not dead it appears if he is Pte. C. Reddick #8669 (CWGC Link).
2. They had the wrong guy, it was Pte. J. Reddick #18667 (CWGC Link).

That means there were errors in the other records for the memorial, so a good chance they also made an error on Norris?

 

Looks like they got Pte. Pepperell correct. Although the headstone reads 24th the GRRF did say 1/24 London.  Norris they had only as 24 on the GRRF.

 

The COG-BR 2004897 is date 25 July 1919 and the GRRF 2303415 6 August 1924.

 

Here are the headstone registers: (cut like this, not my cropping)