British Concentration Camps?

[Noyes16]

I've just finished reading the excellent book "War Beneath The Waves, U-Boat Flottilla Flandern 1915-1918" by Tomas Termote. In the book is a section which talks about how U-Boat prisoners were treated by the British when captured. It states that Arthur Enigk from UC-5 was captured along with several colleagues and was held in appalling conditions which were always damp and they were fed very little food. The author uses this one example to claim "Enigk's story was actual proof that the British had developed an early form of concentration camp and had thought of a psychological style of warfare". Personally, I don't consider a single account as "proof". However, does anyone know if the British did have prisoner of war camps that could be regarded as concentration camps? I've read about British concentration camps in the Boer War but never the Great War.

 

Many thanks,

Robin

[Terry_Reeves]

Robin

 

I had to smile about the "concentration camps" being damp.  No different from the submariners normal working habitat I suspect.

 

TR

Edited 3 October , 2017 by Terry_Reeves

[Uncle George]

By coincidence I posted this account

 

http://www.dorsetlife.co.uk/2015/12/dorchesters-prisoner-of-war-camp/

 

on another thread earlier today. The account speaks for itself, but here's a flavour:

 

‘A correspondent was conducted over the place by the commandant, Major W C Bulkeley DSO … a humane man with a decided sense of humor.’ The Eagle’s journalist was allowed to meet the prisoners, finding their stove-heated huts ‘considerably more comfortable than the average grate-heated London house.’

 

[TGM]

As an introduction have you read Prisoners of War and Internees (Great Britain)  in: 1914-1918-online. International Encyclopedia of the First World War, ed. by Ute Daniel, Peter Gatrell, Oliver Janz, Heather Jones, Jennifer Keene, Alan Kramer, and Bill Nasson, issued by Freie Universität Berlin, Berlin 2014-10-08. DOI: 10.15463/ie1418.10296.

 

I attended a conference a few years ago on Sacrifice and Modern War Literature in which Steve Attridge said much how the Boer War enabled the development of various forms of torture including CCs.

 

PS

For an overview, worth reading:

Concentration camps by Dan Stone,  includes an especially useful reference list on their origin. See also his introductory lecture

Mühlhahn,K. The Concentration Camp in Global Historical Perspective. History Compass, 2010  8(6) pp. 543–561 - covers  Spanish occupation of Cuba.

 

A visit to the Isle of Man internment camps – archive

 

Edited 6 October , 2017 by TGM
additional information/references

[Phil Wood]

QED?

 

[Simon_Fielding]

I think that the term and practice originated in Spanish Cuba

 

https://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/1898/reconcentration.html

[charlesmessenger]

Simon

 

Thank you for that. One wonders whether the British in S Africa were aware of the Spanish experience. Unfortunately, the meaning of Concentration camp changed between c1900 and the late 1930s. I fear the Flanders Flotilla author is trying to apply the later meaning.

 

Charles M 

Edited 3 October , 2017 by charlesmessenger

[Phil Wood]

1 hour ago, Simon_Fielding said:

I think that the term and practice originated in Spanish Cuba

 

https://www.loc.gov/rr/hispanic/1898/reconcentration.html

 

Interesting - the Cuban experience was clearly the model for the South African camp policy (shame they didn't learn from the Cuban experience and prevent the inhumane conditions arising) - but not the Concentration Camps in 1914 Britain.  Then they were clearly what we understand of as internment and PoW camps.

 

In the case of the Newbury camp it hit the international press when a German paper printed claims of maltreatment. A neutral power (USA) investigated the claims and found them unfounded - nevertheless it was a bit ad-hoc (racecourse stables and tents), far from perfect, and was closed as winter set in.

 

Post 1945 we have a clear vision of what a concentration camp was - a vision that is very much at odds with WW1 camps in the UK, themselves very different from the camps in Cuba and South Africa.

 

You need to detatch the emotive terminology from the issue of the treatment of PoWs - does the author state which camp(s) had the dreadful conditions?

[Guest]

    Here is a quote from a "puff" for the book by Termote, describing  the effects of the submarine war on german mariners:

 

Medical reports reveal a range of debilitating illnesses, both physical and mental, says Termote. Digestive and hearing disorders were commonplace, while many officers suffered nervous breakdowns under the stress of command. Heart problems could also be brought on by prolonged lack of oxygen. 

 

      I don't think any POW ever considers his/her treatment as "good"- it's part of the process of losing one's liberty.  What did Termote expect of the treatment of POWs-Liveried flunkeys and a freshly-ironed copy of the "The Times" every day?

[Noyes16]

I think Termote was clearly trying to compare British camps with the concentration camps of Nazi Germany and not simply being camps containing a high concentration of prisoners. It's interesting from the image in Phil Wood's post that the British referred to their own camps as concentration camps. I'm sure the German prisoners in Britain were treated at least as well as British prisoners in Germany, though this isn't something I've read much about.

[Black Maria]

I read ' Tommy at Gommecourt  ' a while ago , compiled from the diaries of Thomas Higgins who was made a P.O.W by the Germans . I thought the

way he and his fellow prisoners were treated was almost on a par with the way the Japanese treated our P.O.Ws in WW2.

 

[Phil Wood]

I'm essentially a local historian, my knowledge of internment and PoWs in 1914 is not too bad - because it was happening in Newbury. Once the internees were sent to the Isle of Man and the PoWs to ships anchored off Ryde I fear my interest faded somewhat - though Newbury men, used in 1914 as guards at the Racecourse, continued in that role throughout the war. I have not come across anything from any of these men implying that guard duty was anything other than dull routine.

 

However, U-Boat crews may have been treated differently from soldiers captured at the front - the fear and loathing of their activities could indeed have resulted in some less than ideal treatment. Were they kept in separate facilities?  If so where?  If it happened it's a story worth telling, if not it's an accusation worth refuting.  We need more info!

[Phil Wood]

A link from a Skindles thread:  http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/ww1/stories/11382626.Take_a_step_back_in_time_to_Poundbury_s_prisoner_of_war_camp/

 

This is pretty much how I imagined UK camps to be. 

 

A quick look at TNA's catalogue throws up a few camps that came under special scrutiny following complaints - as happened at Newbury - might be interesting to have a look at a few of these. 

[MaureenE]

The International Committee of the Ref Cross visited prisoner of war camps in England, as in other places, and published reports.

 

Here're some in French, from https://grandeguerre.icrc.org

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/Camps/Southend-vessel-vessels-Royal-Edward-Saxonia-/414/fr/  March 1915

https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/Camps/Douglas/501/fr/ January 1916

 

Or on scribd https://www.scribd.com/lists/4561758/Rapports-14-18  where there may be additional reports such as

https://www.scribd.com/document/231547881/Rapports-de-MM-Ed-Naville-et-V-van-Berchem-Dr-C-de-Marval-A-Eugster-sur-leurs-visites-aux-camps-de-prisonniers-en-Angleterre-France-et-Allemag

 

Perhaps these reports are also available in English, (a report regarding British POW Camps in India is available in both French and English), but I can't see anything in the British Library catalogue.

 

During WW1 a concentration camp simply mean a camp where many men were gathered together, and could apply to soldiers, where a concentration camp  generally meant a transit camp

 

Cheers

Maureen

[Medaler]

All down to semantics really. Those who associate the term "Concentration Camp" with Auchwitz and Dachau will get all excited and hot and bothered by the phrase. In reality, the concept behind a concentration camp was merely to designate a place where a homogeneous group of people could be gathered together. At it's loosest it could be a boy scout jamboree, where the biggest crime against humanity one is likely to encounter might simply be a surfeit of burnt sausages. What places like Auchwitz and Dachau really represented are perhaps better termed as extermination camps.

 

Did we put German POW's in  concentration camps? - Why of course we did. Has any warring nation ever allowed its POW's to run around "free range"? Did we set up camps that had the intended purpose of providing facilities where German POW's could be systematically exterminated? - No, we did not.

 

Mike

[Phil Wood]

1 hour ago, Medaler said:

All down to semantics really. Those who associate the term "Concentration Camp" with Auchwitz and Dachau will get all excited and hot and bothered by the phrase. In reality, the concept behind a concentration camp was merely to designate a place where a homogeneous group of people could be gathered together. At it's loosest it could be a boy scout jamboree, where the biggest crime against humanity one is likely to encounter might simply be a surfeit of burnt sausages. What places like Auchwitz and Dachau really represented are perhaps better termed as extermination camps.

 

Did we put German POW's in  concentration camps? - Why of course we did. Has any warring nation ever allowed its POW's to run around "free range"? Did we set up camps that had the intended purpose of providing facilities where German POW's could be systematically exterminated? - No, we did not.

 

Mike

 Whilst I agree about the semantics I am interested in the claim regarding U-boat crew.  Our camps in South Africa were not designed as extermination camps, but did a fair job of reducing Boer numbers - where any of our WW1 PoW camps as bad?  I seriously doubt it - there is plenty of evidence of an inspection regime (TNA has a number of inspection reports) overseen by neutral powers that would sure have exposed any sort of punishment camp. What would be good to know is the name of the camp that the U-boat crew were sent to, which would be the starting point of any investigation - if the author of the book does not name a camp then it would seem very likely that he is simply repreating a propaganda story.

[Noyes16]

Termote lists the places Enigk and his U-boat crewmates were taken to as being Harwich Naval Base (Termote states treatment here was "brutal"), a fort near Harwich, Shrewsbury prisoner-of-war camp, Stobs POW camp in Scotland and finally Brockton camp. Enigk and his crewmates were eventually returned to Germany in April 1918 after being exchanged for British prisoners.

[Moonraker]

We've discussed British "concentration camps" before - Google "invisionzone concentration camps" for several threads that, admittedly, do not relate directly to Robin's question. Included is my reference to the "concentration camp" of RFC aircraft and personnel at Netheravon just before the war started.

 

Moonraker

[tom bowler]

Andersonville is an earlier example of a 'concentration camp' that they had in the American Civil war in the USA. There were others apparently.

Edited 4 October , 2017 by tom bowler
additional sentence.

[Phil Wood]

2 hours ago, Noyes16 said:

Termote lists the places Enigk and his U-boat crewmates were taken to as being Harwich Naval Base (Termote states treatment here was "brutal"), a fort near Harwich, Shrewsbury prisoner-of-war camp, Stobs POW camp in Scotland and finally Brockton camp. Enigk and his crewmates were eventually returned to Germany in April 1918 after being exchanged for British prisoners.

 

Thanks.  I suspect the Naval Base was temporary holding - far easier to mistreat prisoners if it is not a proper, monitored camp. 

 

TNA seems to have a few reports etc on Stobs and Brocton, haven't checked the others yet.  I have to say that the catalogue entries don't seem to have much to do with conditions, but it will be worth checking a few next time I'm at Kew.

[healdav]

On 04/10/2017 at 18:10, Medaler said:

All down to semantics really. Those who associate the term "Concentration Camp" with Auchwitz and Dachau will get all excited and hot and bothered by the phrase. In reality, the concept behind a concentration camp was merely to designate a place where a homogeneous group of people could be gathered together. At it's loosest it could be a boy scout jamboree, where the biggest crime against humanity one is likely to encounter might simply be a surfeit of burnt sausages. What places like Auchwitz and Dachau really represented are perhaps better termed as extermination camps.

 

Did we put German POW's in  concentration camps? - Why of course we did. Has any warring nation ever allowed its POW's to run around "free range"? Did we set up camps that had the intended purpose of providing facilities where German POW's could be systematically exterminated? - No, we did not.

 

Mike

The earliest mention of something like 'concentration camp' that I have come across is in the reign of Charlemagne when he had 'concentration areas' for populations being transferred forcibly from one region to another. They are also, apparently mentioned in the Philippines War, US-Mexico, and so on; and, of course, the Boer War. At the time of WW1 the term concentration camp meant nothing other than a place where a lot of people were 'concentrated. As you say, a Scout Jamboree. It was routinely used to mean a prison, internment camp and POW camp, and will be found in many official documents in all languages.

It was only in the 1930s that the Nazis perverted the term, as always, and the term became synonymous with 'death camp'.

Unfortunately, the Nazi meaning has been extended back through history, especially as regards the camps in the Boer War. This has led to the continual claim that the British invented death camps or concentration camp, which is utter rubbish.

Edited 13 March , 2019 by healdav

[TGM]

See Robert Saunders response to Rees-Mogg's alternative facts on British concentration camps ("Camps of Detention") in South Africa.

See also Hansard:

 

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1901/jun/17/south-african-war-mortality-in-camps-of#S4V0095P0_19010617_HOC_251

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1901/jun/17/camps-of-concentration-mortality#S4V0095P0_19010617_HOC_68  

[depaor01]

26 minutes ago, TGM said:

See Robert Saunders response to Rees-Mogg's alternative facts on British concentration camps ("Camps of Detention") in South Africa.

See also Hansard:

 

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1901/jun/17/south-african-war-mortality-in-camps-of#S4V0095P0_19010617_HOC_251

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1901/jun/17/camps-of-concentration-mortality#S4V0095P0_19010617_HOC_68  

Shocking stuff. All of it!

Dave

[healdav]

The term 'concentration camp' or similar can be traced back as far as Charlemagne, and until the 1930s and the Nazis it was a term that simply meant a place where a lot of people were concentrated.

In thousands of WW1 documents, POW camps, internment camps and prisons are referred to as concentration camps.

For some reason after the Nazis perverted the term, the perversion was referred back to usage of the term before the Nazis existed.

Any camps in South Africa can in no way be compared with the Nazis Concentration camps (mind you, he Nazis probably chose the term as it was so familiar to people, and death camp would not immediately spring to mind as a synonym).

Yes, a lot of people died in them, but it wasn't many years before that tens of thousands had died of cholera in Europe (I think the last big outbreak was in the mid-1860w across Europe). What is always missed is that a lot of the problem was due to the fact that the Boers were not used to sanitation. Their idea of a built up area was when you could see the neighbouring farm on the horizon. So, when they wanted to go they had only to go around the back of the farmhouse to the latrine. The concept that you should put latrines a long way from habitations to avoid cross contamination and contamination of water supplies, was a complete unknown.

I'm sure there was incompetence, after all the Mesopotamian campaign was hardly an example of hygiene in the hospitals, but that is a far cry from deliberate murder à la Nazi.

 

[TGM]

On 17/02/2019 at 13:02, healdav said:

The term 'concentration camp' or similar can be traced back as far as Charlemagne, and until the 1930s and the Nazis it was a term that simply meant a place where a lot of people were concentrated.

In thousands of WW1 documents, POW camps, internment camps and prisons are referred to as concentration camps.

For some reason after the Nazis perverted the term, the perversion was referred back to usage of the term before the Nazis existed.

Any camps in South Africa can in no way be compared with the Nazis Concentration camps (mind you, he Nazis probably chose the term as it was so familiar to people, and death camp would not immediately spring to mind as a synonym).

Yes, a lot of people died in them, but it wasn't many years before that tens of thousands had died of cholera in Europe (I think the last big outbreak was in the mid-1860w across Europe). What is always missed is that a lot of the problem was due to the fact that the Boers were not used to sanitation. Their idea of a built up area was when you could see the neighbouring farm on the horizon. So, when they wanted to go they had only to go around the back of the farmhouse to the latrine. The concept that you should put latrines a long way from habitations to avoid cross contamination and contamination of water supplies, was a complete unknown.

I'm sure there was incompetence, after all the Mesopotamian campaign was hardly an example of hygiene in the hospitals, but that is a far cry from deliberate murder à la Nazi.

 

 

My understanding is that people, including ministers at the time viewed the use of camps of detention as 'barbarous'. IMHO, blaming the inhabitants/internees, or comparing death rates with x, y or z, or extremes such as that practiced by German National Socialists of the 1940s seems, well, facile!.

Edited 18 February , 2019 by TGM