1st Battalion Irish Guards

[mcartwright]

Can anyone help me find info about my great uncle Michael O'Sullivan who died in WW1 please, or point me in the right direction? He was a Lance Corporal in the 1st Battalion Irish Guards and died on 15th May 1915 aged 27. I believe he is remembered on the Le Touret Memorial, Pa de Calais. He was born in Rathkeale, Limerick. Service Number 3709.

Many thanks

Mary

Edited 1 October , 2017 by mcartwright
Missing info

[Langdon]

 

Welcome to the Forum Mary.

 

Michael enlisted in February 1911 in Limerick and according to Ancestry's Soldiers Died in the Great War was killed in action on 18th May 1915 at Rue Du Bois, France. Also SDGW has him down as born in Ballyhahill rather than Rathkeale. The Register of Soldiers' Effects has his sole legatee as Catherine, his mother.

He was awarded the 1914/15 Star, the Victory Medal and the British War Medal. According to his Medal Index Card he entered France on 23rd November 1914.

 

The 1st Battalion's War Diary is downloadable for a small price here at the National Archives. It covers the period from August 1914 to July 1915.

 

Mike

Edited 1 October , 2017 by Langdon

[Langdon]

He might be recorded below with his brother James in the 1911 England Census in the Guards Depot at Caterham, Surrey (although there is a two-year age difference). There is a James O'Sullivan next to him in the listing and is down as being a year younger. Both from Ballyhahill, Co. Limerick:

 

Name:Michael Osullivan

Age in 1911:21

Estimated birth year:abt 1890

Birth Place:Ballyhalhill, Limerick, Ireland

Civil Parish:Caterham

Search Photos:Search for 'Caterham' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection

County/Island:Surrey

Country:England

Street address:The Guards Depot Caterham, Caterham

Marital Status:Single

Military Unit:Irish Guards

Registration district:Godstone

Registration District Number:38

Sub-registration district:Godstone

ED, institution, or vessel:27

Piece:3270

Household Members:

NameAge

Elizabeth Betmead 33

John Rodgers 32

Michael Graham 29

Nicholas Byrne 28

Cecil Harradine 25

Thomas Cony 24

Stephen Charles Duane 22

Dennis Slattery 24

Charles Ernest McCarthy 23

Patrick Carrol 27

Francis John Reardon 18

Christopher Moran 20

Thomas Donnelly 19

John Morgan 19

James Byrne 19

William John Jameson 23

William Reilly 21

Michael Rowe 21

Thomas Flemming 18

James Joseph Craig 21

Samuel Quigley 18

Thomas Conghlan 22

James Rourke 19

Michael Moran 24

John Millar 19

John Myles 20

Michael Brennan 24

John Nester 29

Michael Breigin 19

John Breigin 20

Albert Deering 19

Michael Ruwan 22

James Brophy 28

James Fagan 24

James Gaffney 18

John O Brien 19

John Rowe 19

Joseph Cosgrove 20

George Bateman 19

Thomas Byrne 25

Peter Gaffey 22

Patrick Giblin 32

Bernard Mc Canley 18

Stephen Oshaughnessey 18

Thomas Daly 22

Joseph Power 25

Thomas Watchorn 29

Daniel Looney 18

Thomas McAuliffe 22

John Norris 19

James Stack 22

Charles Whebell 23

Edwad Carberry 20

Patrick Carnelly 19

Michael McGrane 21

Michael Okeeffe 18

John Guffin 18

Malachi Coleman 34

William Brady 18

Patrick Oneill 21

Patrick Osullivan 19

David Ellison 21

James Nolan 20

John McCarthy 22

Patrick Gaffney 23

James Morrison 18

Michael Hallahan 24

Henry Stokes 24

Michael Gunning 23

Besmond Smith 23

Thomas Omalley 22

James Osullivan 20

Michael Osullivan 21

William McManus 26

Thomas Feeney 21

Dennis Harney 21

James McAviney 20

William Dock 22

Francis Murphy 25

 

Mike

[mcartwright]

Thank you Mike, you have been an enormous help. I am new to this and your info has been invaluable.

[mcartwright]

Thank you museumtom. I have been so moved by the information you have posted . This is the first photo I have seen of Michael and has no idea James existed. Michael and James were

my grandfather's, William O'Sullivan, brothers, indeed I have no photo of him either and never knew him.  I grew up in England and we knew very little of that side of the family.  Just starting out with family history. So very proud of Michael and James and all the men who fought.  Can't thank you enough museum tom.

[museumtom]

Happy to help. These heroes will be remembered.

Kind regards.

 Tom.

 “Nuair a théann an ghrian faoi, agus ar maidin, ‘Cuimhnímis iad’- At the going down of the sun, and in the morning, we WILL remember them.

[museumtom]

The beauty of the Irish Guards is that their records survived as they were always kept at Warley Barracks so if you pop off a query to the officer I/C records at Warley you should be able to access both records.

[tullybrone]

9 minutes ago, museumtom said:

The beauty of the Irish Guards is that their records survived as they were always kept at Warley Barracks so if you pop off a query to the officer I/C records at Warley you should be able to access both records.

 

Sorry to correct your post Tom but RHQ Irish Guards is at Wellington Barracks, Birdcage Walk, London.

 

http://www.theguardsmuseum.com/Family-Research

 

Regards

 

Steve

Edited 2 October , 2017 by tullybrone

[museumtom]

Always happy to be corrected, thank you Steve.

Kind regards.

 Tom.

[mcartwright]

Thank you both for your help. What volume of the 26 counties Casualties of War is Michael O'Sullivan remember in museumtom? Thanks

[museumtom]

Volume 12 which covers O'Leary-Ring.

[mcartwright]

Thank you.

[mcartwright]

In the passage from the 26 counties covering the death of my uncle Michael O'Sullivan and his still surviving brother James, it reads 'another brother will offer himself to the Irish Guards'.

This can only be reference to my grandfather William O'Sullivan, born 1885.  He was listed as a soldier on his marriage certificate in 1923 but I am now wondering was he also in

the Irish Guards?  I have been told that he was one of the first men to join the Irish Free State army and this perhaps would have dated from 1922, I don't know whether that is an accurate date.  Haven't found a trace of him so far. Family rumours have indicated that all the men from the O'Sullivan family had been in the army.

 

Thanks

 

 

[museumtom]

Sorry Mary, I have no further information on William.

[museumtom]

Sorry Mary, I have no further information on William.

[mcartwright]

Thank you museumtom, I'll keep digging with the info you have given me, which is far more than I had when I first posted.

 

Many thanks

 

Mary

[Colin Worswick]

Hello, I’m researching my great grandad John Murphy who died on 18 May 1915 in France, the same day as mentioned above. He was in the 1st Battalion Irish Guards, Regimental number 5233.  Born in Blackburn, Lancashire. He is remembered on the Le Touret memorial.

 

Any information would be very gratefully received.

 

many thanks. Colin Worswick 

[clk]

Hi Colin,

 

There is a slight question mark over the date of his actual death, as both his medal roll records and his Soldiers' Effects record has the 18th May 1915 as an 'on or since death presumed' date. The Battalion war diary is here at the National Archives, or here on Ancestry. The Brigade HQ diary is here and here. His medal roll records indicate that he arrived in France/Flanders on 5th January 1915, but as the 1st Bn arrived in August 1914, he must have been sent over as a reinforcement. 

 

You can download Kipling's books of the Irish Guards in WW1 as free downloads from here.

 

Unlike the majority of regiments whose service files were badly effected by a fire in a central repository in WW2, the Guards Regiments records were held elsewhere. My understanding is that the Irish Guards records have recently been moved from the Regimental Archive to the MoD. There is a helpdesk phone number here, and advise on how to get copy (albeit probably heavily weeded from) here. It's my understanding that despite the general advice, that as John was born over 100 years ago, they wouldn't need a copy death certificate with any application.

 

Regards

Chris 

 

Edit: There is good advice on researching a soldier here

Edited 2 October , 2018 by clk

[Colin Worswick]

Thank you sir, this is absolutely fantastic. I couldn’t find his effects record on Ancestry, so that’s brilliant research. 

I never knew that he died in the war, it was never a family story. I’ve only just discovered this on Ancestry, but it took me a very, very long time because there’s so many soldiers called John Murphy.

Thank you.

[familyhistoryman]

On 02/10/2018 at 20:34, Colin Worswick said:

Hello, I’m researching my great grandad John Murphy who died on 18 May 1915 in France, the same day as mentioned above. He was in the 1st Battalion Irish Guards, Regimental number 5233.  Born in Blackburn, Lancashire. He is remembered on the Le Touret memorial.

 

Any information would be very gratefully received.

 

many thanks. Colin Worswick 

Colin

It could be worth contacting Blackburn Library as they have an excellent collection of WW1 obituary notices of the Blackburn men taken from the local newspapers. You can also check the cottontown.org website see

http://www.cottontown.org/Wars/Roll of Honour/World War 1/Pages/Letter-M.aspx

Regards Tony

[Colin Worswick]

7 hours ago, familyhistoryman said:

Colin

It could be worth contacting Blackburn Library as they have an excellent collection of WW1 obituary notices of the Blackburn men taken from the local newspapers. You can also check the cottontown.org website see

http://www.cottontown.org/Wars/Roll of Honour/World War 1/Pages/Letter-M.aspx

Regards Tony

Thanks Tony, I’ve had a look but sadly there isn’t a photo in Cottontown. I’ll pay a visit to the library.

[Colin Worswick]

Could anyone please help with my questions?

 

I now have John Murphy’s service records, which show that he was K in A on 9 September 1915, and not 18 May. His death was confirmed, ‘Missing believed killed’ on 16 Sept. It wasn’t until Feb 1916 that the War Office declared that ‘for official purposes this soldier is to be regarded as having died on or since 18 May 1915’

The Battalion War diary records that in early September they ‘remained in billets’ and were ‘exercised for an attack’ on a village called Drionville. 

How could he have been killed in action when the battalion wasn’t fighting?

Could he have been killed whilst training?

Also, he was a ‘C2 Casualty’. Does anyone know what this is?

 

Thank you for helping. 

[clk]

Hi Colin,

 

That's a bit strange. Is there anything obvious in the record to explain why they backdated his death by four months?

 

Sorry, I don't know what a C2 Casualty is.

 

Regards

Chris

[familyhistoryman]

2 hours ago, Colin Worswick said:

Could anyone please help with my questions?

 

I now have John Murphy’s service records, which show that he was K in A on 9 September 1915, and not 18 May. His death was confirmed, ‘Missing believed killed’ on 16 Sept. It wasn’t until Feb 1916 that the War Office declared that ‘for official purposes this soldier is to be regarded as having died on or since 18 May 1915’

The Battalion War diary records that in early September they ‘remained in billets’ and were ‘exercised for an attack’ on a village called Drionville. 

How could he have been killed in action when the battalion wasn’t fighting?

Could he have been killed whilst training?

Also, he was a ‘C2 Casualty’. Does anyone know what this is?

 

Thank you for helping. 

Colin

Have you had time to visit Blackburn Library. Although there is no image on the cottontown website it is more than likely they have an obituary notice from the local newspaper. It could be worth emailing if have not yet visited

Tony

[Colin Worswick]

4 hours ago, Colin Worswick said:

Could anyone please help with my questions?

 

I now have John Murphy’s service records, which show that he was K in A on 9 September 1915, and not 18 May. His death was confirmed, ‘Missing believed killed’ on 16 Sept. It wasn’t until Feb 1916 that the War Office declared that ‘for official purposes this soldier is to be regarded as having died on or since 18 May 1915’

The Battalion War diary records that in early September they ‘remained in billets’ and were ‘exercised for an attack’ on a village called Drionville. 

How could he have been killed in action when the battalion wasn’t fighting?

Could he have been killed whilst training?

Also, he was a ‘C2 Casualty’. Does anyone know what this is?

 

Thank you for helping. 

Could anyone please help with my questions?

 

I now have John Murphy’s service records, which show that he was K in A on 9 September 1915, and not 18 May. His death was confirmed, ‘Missing believed killed’ on 16 Sept. It wasn’t until Feb 1916 that the War Office declared that ‘for official purposes this soldier is to be regarded as having died on or since 18 May 1915’

The Battalion War diary records that in early September they ‘remained in billets’ and were ‘exercised for an attack’ on a village called Drionville. 

How could he have been killed in action when the battalion wasn’t fighting?

Could he have been killed whilst training?

Also, he was a ‘C2 Casualty’. Does anyone know what this is?

 

Thank you for helping. 

 

Casualty Form - Active Service

9.9.15 - K in A reported by CSM McVeigh. Can death be confirmed. 

13.9.15 - Reported to 06 Battalion 

16.9.15 - Missing believed killed 

29.2.16 - In accordance with the decision of the Army Council, this soldier is to be regarded for official purposes as having been killed on or since 18.5.15

 

Statement of the Service of 5233 John Murphy

Reported Missing 18.5.15

 

His army service record finishes on 18.5.15

 

His widow received 15 shillings/week pension from 24 April 1916

 

I agree that this is very strange. I recall reading Kipling’s book about an officer and four men being killed whilst training, when an explosive was detonated. 

Edited 24 November , 2018 by Colin Worswick