Austro-Hungarian unknown uniform

[Morar Andrei]

In an old family photo there are two soldiers who fought in the First World War in the Austro-Hungarian army. One of them wears the classic uniform of infantry, blue-grey or feldgrau, with a hat same colour with the tunic on his head. The other one wears a completely different uniform. The tunic he wears is of dark color, possibly blue, green or brown, at the tunic collar having two stars placed vertically, two on one side and two on the other, with the possibility to designate his rank in the army. On the head he wears the same felgrau hat as the other, his uniform remindin about an image of a Tyrolian Kaiserjäger, but it is unlikely to be so. Now, I request your help in identifying his unit kind. There should also be noted that he and the other guy were transylvanian volunteers in the army, so from the hungarian side of the empire, which might have used little modifications to the uniform. Was he possible to be an infantry lieutant, corporal, artilery crew or even a jäger? The image below is describing the guy I am looking for. Thank you very much! Sorry if the pictures are a bit unclear, the photography is placed in a 100 years old orthodox icon. Does anyone know what unit was wearing this unifirm down below?

 

 

[Morar Andrei]

Transylvanian conscript in the army, strange uniform.In an old family photo there are two soldiers who fought in the First World War in the Austro-Hungarian army. One of them wears the classic uniform of infantry, blue-grey or feldgrau, with a hat same colour with the tunic on his head. The other one wears a completely different uniform. The tunic he wears is of dark color, possibly blue, green or brown, at the tunic collar having two stars placed vertically, two on one side and two on the other, with the possibility to designate his rank in the army. On the head he wears the same felgrau hat as the other, his uniform remindin about an image of a Tyrolian Kaiserjäger, but it is unlikely to be so. Now, I request your help in identifying his unit kind. There should also be noted that he and the other guy were transylvanian volunteers in the army, so from the hungarian side of the empire, which might have used little modifications to the uniform. Was he possible to be an infantry corporal, lieutant, artilery crew or even a jäger? What kind of units were these guys from? At least the guy with the darker tunic. Is there absolutely no information about the possible division fought in, or about coscripts from the Rupea-Cuciulata area, now in Brasov county, Romania? Thank you very much! I really want to find out an answer. If you have an idea about a possible division uniform, write me an answer. That would mean very much for me, to help identifying a piece of my family history.

 

[ARABIS]

I am not an expert on Austro-Hungarian uniforms but I did find out that 2 stars made of white bone or celluloid on the collar patch signifies a Corporal [Korporal].

Hopefully someone with better knowledge will add to this thread.

 

ARABIS.

[FROGSMILE]

The pointed top to the front part of the field cap worn by both men implies that it is indeed Austro-Hungarian.

The man on the left appears to be an officer (Lieutenant) and the man on the right a soldier.  It might be that the different coloured jacket reflects the ranks concerned.

The jacket with chest pockets is called a ‘bluse’ and its dark colour suggests a ‘Gendarme’ unit, although darker coloured jackets were also worn by artillery and some administrative units.  Unfortunately black and white images make it impossible to determine which, especially with just head and shoulders shown.

My suggestions are based on some images from the book, “Vanished Armies”, by AE Haswell Miller, edited by John Mollo.

Edited 3 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Morar Andrei]

Thank you for answer. The black and white pictures make indeed harder to recognize the kind of uniform. That is very interesting to think and find out a piece of family history , especially after a long research. I tried on many sources, but I found nothing similar. Thank you again very much!

[Morar Andrei]

Also, does this uniform match to the one I'm looking for? It seems to be similar, and now you can have the hole image. The only problem is that the source of the photo was not mentioning the rank of the guy depicted there.

 

[FROGSMILE]

The dark shade of the uniform and the rifle and leather equipment definitely imply a ‘Gendarme’ and not artillery, or administration.  The infantry wore a distinctly pale coloured uniform known as ‘pike grey’.

Edited 3 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[Morar Andrei]

So, do the two images match (mine and the one fro internet)? Thank you anyways for opinion!

[FROGSMILE]

On 04/10/2017 at 14:36, Morar Andrei said:

So, do the two images match (mine and the one fro internet)? Thank you anyways for opinion!

 

Yes, I think so, but it is impossible to be 100% positive from just a head and shoulders picture.  Nevertheless, on the balance of probabilities there is a good chance that your image of a man in dark coloured bluse is showing a Gendarme of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

 

 

[CROONAERT]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

...The infantry wore a distinctly pale coloured uniform known as ‘pike grey’.

 

Until September 1915. Hechtgrau gave way to a German style feldgrau from then on.

 

Prior to the adoption of hechtgrau (by all arms) in 1908, the Mod. 1882 Rock or feldrock was worn. This, dark blue jacket was re-issued , sometimes with adapted shoulder boards, to some second line troops all the way through to 1918.

 

Dave 

Edited 4 October , 2017 by CROONAERT

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, CROONAERT said:

 

Until September 1915. Hechtgrau gave way to a German style feldgrau from then on.

 

Dave

 

Thank you Dave.  Noted.  I think that's what we see in the second picture of uniforms above.

Edited 4 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[CROONAERT]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Thank you Dave.  Noted.  I think that's what we see in the second picture of uniforms above.

 

See my edit to my post (just done as you were posting!) ... It's possibly an adapted M.1882 Feldrock being worn (though this didn't usually have chest pockets), but the variation in shades of feldgrau was astonishing, so it's probably not and it's most likely that you're probably correct.

 

 

Morar Andrei ... can you work out the cockades on the caps? (can you see whether they state 'FJI', 'IFJ' or 'K')

 

Dave

[CROONAERT]

One thing though... it's going to be difficult to pinpoint a unit (even if it was in colour) as ,even within the infantry, a whole range of coloured collar tabs were used to denote a particular regiment...

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, CROONAERT said:

 

See my edit to my post (just done as you were posting!) ... It's possibly an adapted M.1882 Feldrock being worn (though this didn't usually have chest pockets), but the variation in shades of feldgrau was astonishing, so it's probably not and it's most likely that you're probably correct.

 

 

Morar Andrei ... can you work out the cockades on the caps? (can you see whether they state 'FJI', 'IFJ' or 'K')

 

Dave

 

That’s interesting Dave, on balance the chest pockets lean us towards Gendarmerie then, or perhaps horse artillery?

[CROONAERT]

On 04/10/2017 at 19:47, FROGSMILE said:

 

That’s interesting Dave, on balance the chest pockets lean us towards Gendarmerie then, or perhaps horse artillery?

 

 

Possible... unfortunately, colour wouldn't help here either! (Gendarmerie tabs shown below... artillery (various) similar reds (and they're all on the infantry listing too!)

 

Dave

 

[CROONAERT]

...one little chink of light in the tunnel here, though.... feldgendarmerie collars also had this device (so we can ,at least, scrap that one)...

 

(incidentally, the source of the images I've been posting is 'Le Armi e gli Equipaggiamenti dell'esercito Austro-Ungarico dal 1914 al 1918' (Volume 1) by Siro Offelli)

 

[CROONAERT]

Now... for the rank problem. Once again , colour would have been handy (but, personally, I'd say that the stars on the image appear to be of the corporal variety) ...

 

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

52 minutes ago, CROONAERT said:

...one little chink of light in the tunnel here, though.... feldgendarmerie collars also had this device (so we can ,at least, scrap that one)...

 

(incidentally, the source of the images I've been posting is 'Le Armi e gli Equipaggiamenti dell'esercito Austro-Ungarico dal 1914 al 1918' (Volume 1) by Siro Offelli)

 

 

Was there any difference between Gendarmerie and Feld Gendarmerie?  The pictures above suggest that there might have been.

[FROGSMILE]

49 minutes ago, CROONAERT said:

Now... for the rank problem. Once again , colour would have been handy (but, personally, I'd say that the stars on the image appear to be of the corporal variety) ...

 

 

 

I cannot tell from the original poster's photo as to the precise design of the rank stars, and what swayed me towards an officer was what seemed a better quality of cloth for the cap, but that might just be an optical illusion.  All that said, looking again now I note that he has a quite low collar compared with the type an officer would normally wear (even on a bluse) and so I think you are probably right that he is a corporal.

Edited 4 October , 2017 by FROGSMILE

[CROONAERT]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Was there any difference between Gendarmerie and Feld Gendarmerie?  The pictures above suggest that there might have been.

 

To be honest, I don't really know, but the extreme likelihood is 'yes'... the Austro-Hungarian armies must be just about the most complex of those who took to the field in 1914 and they often confuse the hell out of me! (Unit designations of the French Armée d’Afrique on the various fronts in WW1 can be very complicated and confuse the majority of (English speaking) readers, but they' really are an absolute doddle compared to the Austro-Hungarians!).

 

The varying 'types/nationalities' of army unit - k.u.k., k.k. and k.u.(or k.u.Honvéd) - all had differing designations (and, sometimes, languages - which doesn't help matters any) so an accurate answer to your question is probably 'yes, no and sometimes' !!!

 

 

 

PS. For the benefit of a certain rather prolific (ex?) poster who used to irritate me by his constant, and incorrect, usage of the term 'KUK' for Austro-Hungarian units (no matter what their origin), the following is about as basic as it gets:

 

k.u.k.  - kaiserlich und königlich -               the generic 'Austro-Hungarian army' recruited from all over the empire

k.k.     - kaiserlich - königlich -                     the standing army (Landwehr) of Austria

k.u.     - königlich ungarische Honvéd -      the standing army (Landwehr) of Hungary 

 

 

Dave

[Morar Andrei]

Unfortunately, I can not identify what letters are on the caps. This is the only picture with him I have. But I could notice that he has something on the left pocket, possible the insigna presented upper. Also, if my image coresponds to the one I took from internet, does that mean my guy was possibly a feldgendarm? And about the rank stars, is that possible to be a corporal gendarm? I see very strange that his hat has a different colour to the uniform and looks different from the one weared by the guy from my related picture to,  closest one as colour and style. Does his uniform have any connection to the hungarian differences, noting that he was living close to the eastern border of the empire (Cuciulata village, his most probable birth place, such as other members of my family, is not very far to the mountains spliting Austria-Hungary and Kingdom of Romania) and being a transylvanian recrut. Last question is that (more for my curiosity) where can I send the photo to be colorized or is there any computer program that might help?                  this insignia is possible to be on his left pocket. There is surely something...

[CROONAERT]

On 04/10/2017 at 21:32, CROONAERT said:

...The varying 'types/nationalities' of army unit ... ... all had differing designations (and, sometimes, languages...

 

 A rather interesting Austro-Hungarian field postcard from 1917 (underline the relevant phrase - similar idea to the British Field Service Postcard I suppose) illustrating this. Nine different languages from the Empire on one card! ...

Dave

 

 

[Morar Andrei]

Finally succeded to get the photo out of the frey, without destroying it. Is it more clear now?

 

[CROONAERT]

5 minutes ago, Morar Andrei said:

I could notice that he has something on the left pocket, possible the insigna presented upper. 

 

It won't be... that insignia is tiny and should go on the collar (looks , to me, to be just a blemish on the photo rather than a badge of any sort).

 

There's no certainty about his unit at all at this stage, but, yes, it's possible to be a corporal in the gendarmerie (they were a military unit anyway and actually wore the standard military issue uniforms - only being differentiated by insignia... by 1916 you'll see gendarmes in hechtgrau, feldgrau AND (behind the lines) in dunkelblau but you could say the same for practically any other unit too, especially those who aren't active in the front lines). Personally, I think the darker uniform is just a manufacturing difference or a re-issue of an older pattern and the unit is still a mystery.

 

Dave

[Morar Andrei]

After findind a much more clear  photo, I  realised too there is no insignia on the collar. But I think this might be also a depiction on a more casual, lightweight uniform, thi picture being done during his free time, together with his brother or relative, also in the army. Does the area living (south-east Transylvania) also influencing the style on the uniform? Because many nations on the empire had little variations on the uniform. Also (more for my curiosity) where can I send the photo to be colorized or is there any computer program that might help?